I thought it would be cool if there was a survey sometime that asked people what they are studying on Skritter.

Choices could be:

Japanese
Beijing Mandarin （那兒）
Mainland Putonghua （那裡）
Taiwan Mandarin (啊）
Other: (Cantonese, Shanghainese)

Having lived in three different regions that speak the different Mandarins I have had to learn the differences between all of them. Its painful getting corrected by someone for regional differences. Each group of people also consider their Mandarin as the proper one.

@ dfoxworthy - Sorry. 哪儿is just as standardized as 哪里. It isn't just Beijingese.

1)Every time you say that, you are insulting people from 山东， 河北， and quite a few other places that use it. (That is the reason my post is slightly aggressive. I feel you are insulting quite a few friends of mine.)

2）I don't know what southerner taught you otherwise, but it is covered under one of the three grammatical rules of 儿化. That is according to 现代汉语 which is one of the dominant sources LINGUISTS go to. They are analyzing standardized mandarin， NOT　ＢＥＩＪＩＮＧＥＳＥ．　It has been my experience that most southerns teach this incorrectly since they are not linguists.　There　ｉｓ　ａ　ｂｉｇ　ｄｉｆｆｅｒｅｎｃｅ　ｂｅｔｗｅｅｎ　ａ　ｔｅａｃｈｅｒ　ａｎｄ　ａ　ｌｉｎｇｕｉｓｔ．　　Ｏｎｅ　ｓｐｅｃｉａｌｉｚｅｓ　ｉｎ　ｃｏｎｖｅｙｉｎｇ　ａｌｒｅａｄｙ　ａｃｑｕｉｒｅｄ　ｋｎｏｗｌｅｄｇｅ　ｗｈｉｌｅ　ｔｈｅ　ｏｔｈｅｒ　ｓｐｅｃｉａｌｉｚｅｓ　ｉｎ　ｔｈｅ　ｆｉｎｅ　ｄｅｔａｉｌｓ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｅ　ｌａｎｇｕａｇｅ．

Whoever taught you it was Bejingese is wrong.

You don't hear 哪儿 on TV because it is informal and TV is rather formal in China.

Ａｓ　ｆｏｒ　ｍｅ，　I　ｓｐｅａｋ　ｆａｉｒｌｙ　ｓｔａｎｄａｒｄｉｚｅｄ　Ｍａｉｎｌａｎｄ，　ｂｕｔ　Ｉ　ｕｓｅ　ｔｈｅ　ｓｔａｎｄａｒｄｉｚｅｄ　儿化　ｐｌｕｓ　ｏｎｅ　ｏｒ　ｔｗｏ　ｎｏｎ－ｓｔａｎｄａｒｄｉｚｅｄ　儿化　ｗｏｒｄｓ．　　Ｉ　ｓｏｕｎｄ　ｓｉｍｉｌａｒ　ｔｏ　ｐｅｏｐｌｅ　ｆｒｏｍ　山东　ｗｉｔｈ　ｓｌｉｇｈｔｌｙ　ｌｅｓｓ　儿化．

I was unclear about one thing. Formal and informal are different from standardized and non-standardized. It is 正式 and 口语。 哪儿 and 哪里 are both 标准。

(I really want an edit post feature.)

I would rather have a survey on the reasons why people are learning the language in the first place:

I primarily use Skritter because...
1) I am taking a class in my home country and want to go beyond the classroom teaching
2) i am taking a class in my home country and I need it to pass tests better
3) I am taking a class in Japan/China and want to support it
4) I am not taking a class and want to learn the language, and I am in my home country
5) I am not taking a class and live in Japan/China and need to learn the language
6) I am in my home country deal with Japanese/Chinese in my work/society.

etc.

James

This is completely unrelated, but it's very confusing to dumb old people like me when two people comment in the same thread with the same avatar (i.e. the image to the left).

James (W)

I would also be curious to see the results of Frozenpea's poll.

i don't get the fascination with figuring out what other people are doing? there's millions of people learning Chinese.

p.s. Re: "Mainland Putonghua （那裡）"
isn't 裡 a taiwanese variant of 里?

“Ｉ　ｓｏｕｎｄ　ｓｉｍｉｌａｒ　ｔｏ　ｐｅｏｐｌｅ　ｆｒｏｍ　山东”

That's fantastic, I've never heard a 老外 speaking 山东方言. Rural 山东方言 is the most beautiful of all accents.

Here's a test for you (some of it 临沂 accent):

　　一、听力题。【每题2分,共10分】

　　1、甲：“Nen看俺这荒子管吧？”
　　乙：“管么！沾一故拥就毁了！”
　　问：乙的意思是（）
　　A、甲的土地很早就荒芜了。B、拒绝为甲照看即将荒芜的土地。
　　C、不同意甲的观点，认为不耐用。D、以上说法都不对。

　　2、甲：“外头天晴木有？”
　　乙：“下的雾露毛。”
　　问：乙的意思是（）
　　A、外面已经晴天了。B、外面有露水和雾。
　　C、外面的雨下的很密集。D、外面雨下的很小。

　　3、女：“你揍绳么地？”
　　男：“我在屋顶上凉快地。”
　　女：“你作业！”
　　问：女的意思是（）
　　A、让男的快去写作业。B、认为男这样很危险。
　　C、问男是否在写作业。D、以上说法都不对。

　　4、甲：“Nen多咱来地？”
山东方言
乙：“俺夜来来地。”
　　问：乙何时到来的（）
　　A、深夜的时候。B、没人看见的时候。
　　C、昨天。D、今天凌晨。

　　5、甲：“你找死啊？”
　　乙：“俺又不得为地！”
　　问：乙的意思是（）
　　A、自己不是故意的。B、不怕甲的恐吓，并要动手打甲。
　　C、表示深深的歉意。D、甲的行为已经不是第一次了。
　　青岛方言部分
　　山东方言

　　五,翻译下面对话:

　　甲：哎要，怎木是嫩？嫩带上哪来？？
　　乙：俺刚从利群出来，寻思子起(去)看看鞋，木有好地~~
　　甲：安娘来，哈带要绳么好地？能穿子走路不就行了？俺同事biang前天卖了双华伦天奴，好几北，洋相省摸？哈不一样穿？
　　乙：就是就是。哎，改天上俺家玩七吧？俺家刚买了个DVD,木是群亮……俺和俺老头成天带家来唱歌。
　　甲：多钱？
　　乙：不贵。也就四北拉块钱儿吧~
　　甲：好。下个礼拜上嫩家唱歌七杭~~~
　　乙：好。等子给哦打电话行了昂~~~
　　甲：好，好，好。我带走了昂，百叫俺同事等急了，特哈带利群肯德基等子我来。等给你打电话行了~~
　　乙：好，走了昂。哎，等一块儿，叫子嫩老头出来玩儿昂~~~
　　甲：好好……
编辑本段

http://baike.baidu.com/view/22963.htm#7

@ K书窝 - HAHAHAHA. I deserve that and bow in humility. I meant them when they are speaking 普通话。 Even when speaking 普通话 each region has their own... feel. For example， 北京人 feel a bit more gutteral and love excessive numbers of 儿s. 哈尔滨人 don't use nearly as many 儿s and feel a little bit lighter than a place like Beijing, but no where near as light as say 四川. I was very unclear on that statement, though. Well played K书窝.

I should state that I never formally was taught Chinese so I don't claim to be an expert on the derivatives of the language and I'm sure everyone will jump all over me for this post as most Chinese students know this better. I instead mostly picked it up from speaking it to people and discussing with them through my travels. I also have had two Beijingese tutors, a Guangxisian, and two Taiwanese tutors. The Beijingese refused to teach anything but 兒 based Chinese while the southerner and Taiwanese told me explicitly, "Nobody says 兒，where on earth did you get these books?" Answer.. "Um, Beijing" "Yeah, you need new ones" Before moving south I had the same opinion about 兒 though.

As true as it may be, I refuse to believe that 兒 is only informal Chinese so you don't hear it on TV. That sounds exactly like what people in the north say. If that were absolutely true, it would suggest people in the south and Taiwan are only speaking formally to each other all the time. People in the north are known to misunderstand sentences or nouns when you don't use 兒. And I have seen people in the south gawk in confusion at other Chinese who use it. Formal or informal in the north, its still northern. It runs so deep at times its like a dialect. That being said, I did use the term Beijing Dialect since Mandarin originated from Beijing and its a northern accent. Thank you for setting me straight on that correction though. What do you suggest would be a better term for people who regularly use 兒 in their informal language?

I'd enjoy learning more about how it works, like I said, I never had the opportunity to learn it properly.

BTW, I speak 台灣國語 and only use traditional characters.

I have a question about the characters for 台灣. I see in the dictionaries that 臺灣 is also used. Skritter doesn't seem super consistent about which traditional variant it uses. For example, the traditional version of 台湾 is given as 台灣 while the traditional version of 台独 is given as 臺獨. Is that correct?

Is there a historical difference or a nuance of meaning here? Or are they interchangeable in Taiwan? What about in other communities that use traditional characters?

James

@dfoxworthy - Now that K书窝 has given me a great laugh and I know where you are coming from, let me see if I can help. You speak Taiwanese Mandarin, so these rules don't really apply to you. My source is 现代汉语. I was told by a Chinese linguist that this was their equivalent to a Webster or Oxford. I have no idea what the Taiwanese equivalent would be. This is very real, I assure you. You can choose to ignore it as some super dialect or not, that is your business, but it is real. It is 口语, but nonetheless very real. 标准普通话 is a series of characters, pronunciations, and grammatical rules. 儿化 falls under the grammatical rules part. Here are the rules for proper 儿化：

1)区别词义 头----头儿
This is expressing a difference in meaning. The first means head. The second means boss.

2)区分词性 画------画儿
This one is used to change the word from one type of word to another. The first is the verb to paint and the second is a painting.

3)表示细小，亲切或喜爱的感情色彩 小孩-----小孩儿
Basically, you are expressing affection for something that is small, cute, etc.

My traditional characters still aren't good enough to type those out in traditional characters for you, sorry. There are also a few other words that given a pass even though they don't follow the rules. They are simply too popular. They are in the dictionaries as proper words. 例：点(儿).

As for your Beijingese teachers... yah. Beijingers can be that way some times. I never had a Beijingese teacher, but I lived there for a year and a half. The problem is that in mainland Mandarin there is usually both an 儿化 and a non-儿化 way of saying things. Northerners like the 儿化 way. Southerners hate it. Both are valid. To be honest, it sounds like you had some pretty crummy teachers in Beijing. If you were still there, I would offer to give you the name of a couple of really good northern teachers. I hate for you to walk out based on a bad experience with some morons.

With all of this said, though, northerners use the 儿 way too often. A ton of their 儿s aren't proper and are nothing more than a hardcore accent. Even though I made the Shandong comment earlier, since then I have come to realize that I seriously scrubbed my Mandarin of non-standardized 儿s since I left China. My Chinese is rather bland now to be honest. No one speaks 100% standardized mainland Mandarin in the wild. Everyone has some accent on the mainland.

As for what to call it, I would just call it a northern accent. However, I could just as easily say that the refusal to use it is a southern accent. Remember, on the mainland, the government controls the language. They control it with an iron fist I might add. Last time I checked, they still said it was based on the northern dialects. Southerns have every right to hate that, but that is the way it is for the time being. Everything I have said, applies to the mainland, though. It doesn't apply to Taiwan. Also, might I add, this is high grammar. I only know it because one of my former teachers has a masters in linguistics. I literally copied those lines of Chinese out of her grad school textbook. The trick is to find an accent you like, and then have a thick skin when everyone wants to try and change it. I hope that helps some.


Note: Yes, you are absolutely right. A southerner who says 小孩 feels just as much affection as one who says 小孩儿。

(Now I just have to hope that after double checking this, there are no errors. I really really want an edit posts button.)

I just realized that what looked clear in the typing words section doesn't look as clear in the final showing. The characters separated by ----- are just examples. There were numerous examples for each rule in the book. I just wrote down one example for each type of rule.

The following at http://www.edu.tw/news.aspx?news_sn=4122 is what the Taiwan department of education says about 台 and 臺. In shout, one should say 臺灣 instead of 台灣.

But in actual practice, one will mostly see台灣 instead of 臺灣.

@pts thanks!

Good poll ideas, foxes! I've asked the first one. Frozenpeas, in the old poll archives somewhere is a similar poll about why people are learning the language (although it only has our max of five options).