http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/world/asia/11psych.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp

Quote:
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As an intern, he noticed that psychiatrists were not treated or rewarded like other doctors. Patients often give surgeons and other specialists “hongbao” — envelopes of cash that can make up a third of a doctor’s income — in exchange for better treatment. Psychiatrists get neither hongbao nor respect.
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Now I'm wondering, and maybe those who have lived in China can clarify this: how much is the standard doctor bribe?

James

I never knew a Chinese person who liked to talk about this in too much detail. They all talked about the need to give a 红包, but they rarely said how much you had to give. I know that one Chinese person was shocked by a truly honest doctor who refused to take one. He merely accepted a lunch for him and his colleagues. This probably cost a couple of hundred RMB and yet I have the impression this was VASTLY cheaper than a proper 红包 would have been.

It depends a lot on the area of the country you are in. In a smaller city where the cost of living isn't that bad, it can be relatively cheap, by outsider standards. It is more commonplace in the smaller cities, though. Whereas it does happen in the line 1 cities, Beijing and Shanghai for example, it is a bit less common. It still happens a lot, though. In a city like Beijing, I believe it can be in the several thousand RMB range. When I was living in Beijing, I was spending around 5-6k RMB a month. I was living moderately well in a decent part of Beijing. For a local, that is quite a bit of cash.

I am afraid this is all from memory. So take it with 2 grains of salt, (My memory is pretty good so I deserve two grains instead of one:)

I meant several thousand RMB is quite a lot of money for a local. I wasn't clear in the second paragraph.

(I still wish we had an edit button.)

What was the bribe for? To skip a queue for an initial consultation? To skip a queue for surgery? Or...?

For better quality health care.

Feel free to do a double take on that sentence. For example, you give a 红包 to your anesthesiologist. Why? to make share that even though he is busy, he takes extra care and gets your drug levels set properly. They seem to error on the side of caution, so they often use too little anesthesia for fear of causing problems. The problem? You are in serious pain after the surgery. Use a 红包 to solve the problem.

That surgeon is going to be cutting on your child. Use a 红包 to guarantee that the guy takes extra care with your child.

That is the way it was explained to me at least.

So, if you don't pay up, mistakes might be made "accidentally"?

Yikes...

"Nice kid you have there. It sure would be a shame if something should happen to him." Hmm... Sounds familiar. ;-)

There's a scene in this film - http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTg0MTU0ODQ0.html - at about 1.15.20 it shows you what might happen if you dont pay up. Ive been meaning to ask my friends if this is what it used to be/is still like.

Unfortunately I fell on a glass bottle and had to go to the hospital for 15 stitches in my hand. From my experience the doctors or nurses were really good with no hongbaos required.

So, on a related note regarding that article, anyone else creeped out by the fact that they just let people like that out after a couple months of therapy? I mean, I know that an insanity plea can get a reduced sentence in the States, but they're gonna make dang sure that that guy isn't going to do it again before they let him out if it's in the States...

@fatdragon More worrying is that there are many people that should be locked up but aren't. In the past year there have been some 10 deadly attacks in schools where several children have been stabbed to death. I as parent is not even allowed now to enter the school that is guarded by armed guards. She is going in first grade! About doctors. All over China officials are also using other ways to get some cash. We had to go to the a child emergency hospital in Hangzhou. Everywhere there I did notice that there where people sitting and getting drip. Sure we had that for her as well. The girl next to us had fallen and hit her forehead and had drip etc. Everyone had to get their drip, regardless what they where treated for.They have some arrangement with the company about that. More disturbing is that you also have to buy a lot of medicines. Most of them totally useless for your condition. it is not good to over consume medicine. Further, if you need to be hospitalized the big show starts. Then you really need to start with 红包 to get a decent bed, food at all, the "better" medicine etc. I estimate that my mother in law spend some 2000 for two days in the hospital a couple of month ago. For hospitals it is better in the big cities but drip etc is the same also in shanghai.

What I found that often it was impossible to buy strong medicine. There was one cheap tablet form on offer, pretty ineffective, and to get anything better you needed an expensive drip. So maybe 30kuai for a week of tablets, but 250 kuai each time for the drip.

shinyspoons - 你是中國人嗎? Are you Chinese?

I've been told that if you are a foreigner you will be treated better then if you are Chinese. Sounds crazy but that's what my Chinese friend told me. She quite hates the Chinese, actually. :\ I told her I've never met a Chinese person who wasn't polite and kind but she insists it's just because I'm a foreigner so I don't know...

I've never actually been to China, I just live in a community with many Chinese people. So I don't really know much about the culture. Just what they tell me about their experiences in China.

@ nickybr38 - In China, Chinese people often feel like second class citizens. This has a touch of truth to it. The government doesn't bother us too much. People at stores are much more considerate. If you put your foot down, they are more likely to back down. I was told that the laws regarding assaulting a foreigner are much more stringent than the laws regarding attacking a local.

I have told many a story to friends in China only to have them be very surprised. They usually mutter something about how no on is helpful/considerate/not a flaming jerk to them...

@west316 when I was in India in 2004 there was a hotel (the Broadlands in Chennai, I believe) that didn't allow Indians to stay there. Racism against their own countrymen! I tried to make a fuss about it, and an Indian friend with connections got a newspaper to send a reporter to interview the owners, but they apparently bribed him and he produced a puff piece rather than the jeremiad we were hoping for.

If a hotel opened in the U.S. that didn't allow Americans, it would be burned to the ground in short order.

@nickybr38 I am English and I would agree with what your friend and west316 said. I think my stay in hospital might have been quite different if I was Chinese.

I did see an advertisement when I was living in Xi'an about a year ago. I think it was supposed to be a government effort to deal with the phenomena of hongbao. I was highly amused at its ambiguity. I really couldn't work out exactly what the advertisement was supposed to be saying. Was it saying you should give hongbao to doctors, policeman etc. or that you shouldn't?

So I asked my Chinese family. They were as confused by the advertisement as I was. Clearly, it was not getting across the message that it was probably supposed to in order to curb the use of hongbao.

Btw, for those who didn't know, there are plenty of hotels in China that are not allowed to accept foreigners because they are not "good" enough for us. They will probably still accept you, but if the police find out you are there you will be asked to leave and they will get in strife.

Just finished watching that film shinyspoons, thanks for the suggestion really enjoyed it, if that's the word. Hospital scene is quite nasty if that sort of thing really goes on.

Bribes are a pretty standard part of doing business in China, from everything I've read, heard and seen, so I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the medical field is any different, but it gives me the creeps. I'm supposed to be moving to Guangzhou next spring- hope I don't get seriously ill! On the bright side, at least I'm close to Hong Kong in case any major illnesses occur.

For what it's worth, the U.S. State Department doesn't recommend getting treatment in China, in part because of concerns about the type of things being discussed here. If you're out in rural areas, medical care gets progressively worst (predictably, I suppose). There's also zero recourse in the event of malpractice,so if you go somewhere and they cut off the wrong leg or whatever, it's pretty much a case of too bad, so sad. In fairness, though, that applies to Japan, as well, or it did when I lived there a few years ago- I heard a few horror stories of really blatant malpractice cases in which the victims not only had no way to hold the offending physicians responsible, but the physicians in question continue to practice! These weren't minor things, either, but pretty severe cases.

I have very little doubt that if you're a foreigner, you'll get better treatment, I assume for many of the same reasons the same products that are recalled outside of China are left on the shelves and continue to be sold within the country. If a bunch of foreigners die because of malpractice, melanine-tainted milk or whatever, that's news, and it's not something that can really be covered up. If some Chinese in Anhui Province die because a doctor does a terrible job trying to patch them up, though, it doesn't take a lot of effort for government-controlled news organizations to just ignore the story. Probably cynical of me to think that way, but fair, I think, given China's past history with this kind of stuff- just look at the whole SARS fiasco.