I've always had trouble remembering the 3rd and 4th strokes of this character (left or right?), and I've finally figured out why... this character is inconsistently laid out in various dictionaries, books, websites, etc. In fact, when I type "guo" in Google Pinyin, the popup for choosing characters shows strokes 3/4 on the left, but when I choose the character and it appears typed, the strokes are on the right. Incidentally, Skritter's 過 is left-aligned.

If it's hard to understand my meaning, compare the various characters on this Wiktionary page: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%81%8E including the animated character.

So, what I'm wondering is, when handwriting this character, is there a more correct version? Or, like with the printed character, is there really no difference?

I can't give you a definite answer, but I've always sees that construction aligned on the left. Another example of such an issue would be 胖, my Chinese surname - some IME's and fonts show the 5th and 6th strokes angled in the opposite directions (i.e. 5th top right to bottom left and 6th top left to bottom right), or 平/评/苹, which has the same issue of reversed strokes at times. I suspect this might be a 繁体字 vs. 简体字 issue - traditional vs. simplified.

Incidentally, that link doesn't work, but I think you described the issue adequately. In the character you're mentioning, it makes a bit more of a difference, as it changes the stroke count as well as the appearance of the character when you switch from left- to right-alignment or back.

I asked some students in the class I just taught, and they told me the right-aligned version is the correct one - they would never write it left-aligned (the 3 of them, all adults, were unanimous). I'll ask some Chinese teachers I know later today and see what they think.

I'm thinking this is a case where the handwriting and printed fonts differ, like with the examples you gave, in addition to things like 說 and 脫， and 眞/真. I don't think it's a traditional/simplified problem, though, since the simplified version is so different.

That being the case, this creates some confusion when practicing in Skritter.

(as for the link, I just typed 過 into Wiktionary - links with Chinese in them never paste correctly, unfortunately)

For the character 過, the Taiwan way of writing it is to align the 3rd and 4th strokes to the right, while mainland aligns them to the left. This problem arises because ML has modified their fonts and called them 新字形. (Note: 新字形 covers both simplified and traditional characters, and Skritter uses 新字形.) All characters with the 骨 radical have this problem.

To check for the correct font used in Taiwan, you can install the 教育部楷書字形檔 from http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/htm/mu/11a-1.htm .

Thanks for the great info, pts! It makes sense (at least about what led to some characters being so mixed up), and sounds a bit like the varied British & American English spellings that confuse non-native speakers.

Interestingly, the people I asked today (all Taiwanese) had never noticed the different font before I asked. For instance, I asked one co-worker to write 過 for me today, and indeed she wrote it right-aligned. It also came out this way when she typed it into Word. However, when I asked her to paste the same character into the MDBG search box, the pasted character (before even searching) was left-aligned. She was perplexed.

When I mentioned the directions of the 2nd/3rd strokes of 平, she assured me that computers always use the downslope/upslope format, then was shocked when she typed the character and it came out the opposite way.

My conclusion is that it's just best to be aware of the differences and where they are used, then pick a favorite (or favourite?) style and stick with it.

Traditional characters are rarely used in the ML. Those people learning these characters do intend to use them outside the ML, don’t they? Then why should they learn them in their 新字形 (those taught in Skritter) which is considered incorrect outside the ML?

Does anyone know if handwriting in Hong Kong uses the 新字形? That's the only reason I could think of.

You have a good point, though. It would be best for Skritter to stick to handwritten forms only, since the people who actually write the traditional characters don't use the 新字形.

A lot of these characters are the same in traditional or simplified. That means we only get one style choice, and sometimes the traditional styles can't be supported.

Hong Kong does not use the 新字形。It has its own standard (see: http://input.foruto.com/ccc/gongbiu/ look for 常用字字形表 標準字體表 正文), but it’s very similar to the Taiwan standard. A discussion about the differences between the HK and TW standard can be found at (http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh/常用字字形表).

It’s a pity that Skritter is unlikely to implement either of these standards in the near future.

How do you know all of this stuff pts? You always come up with interesting links whenever this kind of topic comes up.

As the saying goes, “seek and you will find.”

In short, I don’t want to spend years learning something and then have to zap my memory afterward and restart again because I’ve learned the wrong one. I want to learn it correctly in the first time. So, I spend time looking for the standards.

Deep in my heart, I know that there are 17 billions people speaking Chinese. Just knowing the language means nothing. I’ve to excel in at least one aspect of it. I also know that most Chinese can’t pronounce the language in the standard way, and the Chinese government is pushing the standard by setting up exams. In China, there are many prep schools for these exams and people who have obtained high grades in them are in short supply. So I decided to pass the exam. Actually, pronunciation is much easier than the other aspects like grammar or comprehension. Also, it’s the Chinese people’s weakest link. Mark Rowswell (大山) who is teaching putonghua in CCTV has done it. Besides pronunciation, writing the characters correctly is another aspect I want to do well. Most Chinese can only write in either simplified or traditional style but not both. I’m learning to write it in all styles, even the Japanese style. So, that’s why I know all these standards.

Thanks for the explanation pts. Those are some impressive targets you've set. I'm interested to hear you say that grammar and comprehension are much harder than pronunciation. In the recent discussion here about 忙不忙的啊 I found my grammar book (Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar, Yip Po-Ching and Don Rimmington) useful, but rather lacking in detail.

Also interested in whether you have any advice on standard pronunciation. This article on language log:

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2174

discusses the difference between an and ang, but I couldn't really hear the problem in the examples it links to.

I have classes with one teacher who has passed the 普通话等级考试 at the top level. Is that the exam that you plan to take? It's apparently the one needed for TV and radio presenters.

I’ve visited that site http://tool.httpcn.com/Zi/YinJie_nan/ before. Frankly, I didn’t notice any problem until I read your mentioned article. But upon repeatedly hearing the sound file, paying my attention at this particular point, now I do noticed that the –ng sound of the male voice is not fully developed for the 4th tone. It exists, but is very weak. He can stress more on delivering that sound. So, may be that’s why it is considered defective. The 普通话水平测试 is graded by human and is a bit subjective. Actually, that site was recommended to me by one who has passed level 1, the highest level.

As mentioned in some previous threads, the book 普通话水平测试实施纲要 is the best reference on the standard pronunciation. It comes with 2 CDs containing the pronunciation of about 17000 words and the reading of 50 passages. The explanation on the pronunciation is also very helpful provided one can understand the Chinese.

Yes, I do plan to take that 普通话水平测试. But that’s still a very long way to go. TV and radio presenters have to obtain 97% of the total marks. No, I can never reach that level. But may be obtaining 80% is possible. Once again, the grading of that test is subjective and occasionally, I do hear some glitches in 大山’s pronunciation.

Hmm interesting the ng sound there sounds exactly like I am used to hearing it from my chinese and taiwanese friends. I am not sure I have heard it spoken any other way.