Hi everyone,

So I have recently begun to notice, very clearly, that the number of characters and words I "know" vastly exceeds my ability to use them. There are two aspects to this.

One is that I have a hard time remembering words outside of Skritter. If I am prompted, then I can write them, but having them at the tip of my tongue when I could benefit from using them is another matter.

The other problem is that while my vocabulary is growing, I'm not learning the grammar, patterns, or rules of usage that would let me use or understand these words naturally in conversation (since there is, of course, a lot more to making a sentence then stringing words together).

I'm sure that this is a dilemma that everyone faces when they acquire a certain amount of words. My question is, does anyone have any suggestions for how to better turn vocabulary into useable language skills? What other tools are best used in conjunction with Skritter, to leverage our knowledge of characters with other elements of language learning?

I have used Anki before to bolster retention, Chinese Pod to learn some patterns, and will be starting a classroom-based course soon, and all have some value. Maybe others can describe some "best-practices" for how they are turning all this wonderful vocabulary into broader language ability.

Cheers,
James

Step 1: Move to China
Step 2: Talk with the locals
Step 3: Repeat step 2

Reading simple books or a menu would help as well.

LOL, if you have the option icecream is 100% correct. If you don't have the option, use QQ, Skype, and language exchange sites to start communicating with Chinese people. When they use unfamiliar words and characters, add those to Skritter.

A third option, which complements the above approach, is to study phrases and sentences in Anki; the sentences should use the words you already "know" through Skritter and should include things that you ran into in conversation and didn't understand at the time, or things which you said wrong and your exchange partner corrected you on.

For example, the other day I wrote to my Chinese language exchange partner and tried to say "My wife and I were talking about you this morning", but I made several mistakes. He wrote back and said I should have written it

今天早上我还跟我太太提到你

so I added that sentence to Anki. As it happens, it doesn't have any words or characters that I didn't already "know", but I didn't know how to use 早上, 根, or 提到 in that way.

I also like to study using Anki's mode which requires me to type in the Pinyin given an English meaning or 汉字. That gives me some assurance that I could actually say it in conversation.

James

When you learn many words off of Skritter, it is very easy to have your problem. That is why I dislike just using Skritter lists. I use textbook lists if I own the textbook. I use the occasional custom list for a particular situation, geography for example. If you were to just translate books, you would stumble across the nightmare of how they speak in a completely different manner from which they write. Ugghh....

Every student of Chinese seems to look down on textbooks, but I can't over emphasize how important they are. One teacher went so far as to say you need to study at least two complete sets of books. (No, I wouldn't count Chinese Pod.) I don't go that far, but, in the beginning, they really are crucial. Studying lists and such will help you understand when other people use the words, but it won't help you use them.

jww1066 has some good ideas. Icecream's is ideal. Ultimately, learning Chinese is either a) expensive, b) involves spending several years living in China, or c) both. I have yet to find a way around that.

I hate to give the boring answer, but I say get a good set of textbooks and stick to emphasizing their material. You can review other stuff, but make the textbooks your bread and butter. I am fond of the Short Term Spoken Chinese and New Practical Chinese Reader series. Note that NPCR is only any good if you study at least the first 3 or 4 books. If you only study one or two books, they are garbage. I find the two sets compliment each other well. Both have short comings, but often times the other set makes up for it.

I'd agree about textbooks. It makes sense to use textbooks, as they tend to do a lot of language reinforcement. NPCR is very earnest and dull, but it's thorough. There's also 成功之路, which I'm using at the moment, and which is a bit more interesting - but which is only available, I think, in China (I bought mine when I was there last summer).

Reading and writing also help. I try to read some Chinese text (preferably real 'in the wild' text rather than language learning materials), and to write a journal entry in Chinese every day, if I can. Seeing the language in context, and using it, are both invaluable. And if you can't move to China (as I can't at the moment), try to find a friendly 留学生 or other native speaker who you can chat with on a weekly basis or even more frequently. Of course being in China helps, but it doesn't help by magical osmosis, it only helps because there are opportunities to use the language. And given that Chinese is a global language, these opportunities are increasing elsewhere too.

Just to make sure it gets mentioned, there is a useful guide in the Help section:

http://www.skritter.com/resources/how-to-learn-chinese

and there's even a FAQ "What doesn't Skritter teach me?"

http://www.skritter.com/faq

James

I am studying Japanese, but some of the techniques I have found helpful would apply to any language. Textbooks, especially those that feature grammar drills are good. I then transfer difficult-to-remember constructs into Anki for drill purposes. I also read popular Japanese literature (e.g. manga--not sure what a Chinese equivalent would be) to get "colloquial" use, again reinforced via Anki. Finally, I use Rosetta as a drill/practice agent. Unlike what the ads say, I am not very good learning things the inductive way (which is what Rosetta is built around). I learn from the books, and use Rosetta to practice. It has a configuration that shows the texts in kanji and kana rather than in latin letters. I also copy down difficult-to-remember phrases for drilling via Anki. Finally, I have a pen pal (was an exchange student with us 30 yrs ago!) in Tokyo. I write him in Japanese (which he corrects) and he writes me in English (ditto).

Like has been said above, the more you see and use Chinese, the better you will get. It may not be as thorough as a textbook, but watching TV can be a good way to get more contact with the language.

I have watched a lot of 蜡笔小新 - http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f3019099o1p105.htm

Its originally from Japan, but is also famous in China. It is a kids program, so the language isn't too hard, but despite that unlike most other kids programs it is watchable. In fact it has so many adult references that i suspect it was written with adults in mind as well as kids.

Thanks everyone, all good advice.

James - is there any particular structure by which you choose sentences to add to Anki? I used to use Anki for characters--never full sentences--and gave it up because it just seemed redundant after Skritter.

Also, where do you find language exchange partners, QQ, or Skype partners?

Thanks,
James

Oh, and can anyone suggest basic readers, or even internet websites where I can find simple stories in Hanzi? http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/games/games.html#stories has some fairy tales (actually not all that easy to understand)... I'm looking for more.

Baidu Wenku wenku.baidu.com has tons of reading material if you know what to look for! I've even found first-year university chemistry course Powerpoint slides posted there...
I've used 成功之路 too, and it was pretty good (e.g., gave example sentences for virtually all their vocab words and phrases).

@jimi02 I would add sentences that are a) interesting b) difficult or c) useful. It's just a matter of what your priorities are.

As for finding partners, search for "language exchange" and you'll find a number of options.

James

James, have you seen the book by Claudia Ross 'The Lady in the Painting'? It is a basic Chinese reader, and interesting story with only 300 characters used throughout the whole book - so you can focus on the grammar without spending too much time looking up characters / words. Ross has grammar notes at the end of each chapter. There is a simplified and traditional version so make sure you order the one you need.

Not sure where you are - but the 'Book Depository' has copies and ships worldwide for free. I use them all the time because even if Amazon are a little cheaper I save so much on international postage - Australia is shocking for language books - not much to choose from and WAY over priced!

Cheers,
Donna

When I'm not at my computer studying with Skritter I use iPhone Apps on the train.

iPhone Apps I like a lot:
A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar (Not really used as a dictionary. This is the best grammar app I've found so far for studying for the JLPT; but it doesn't use spaced repetition for learning)
Japanese Flash (Vocabulary)
Japanese (My main Dictionary)
wishoTouch (Dictionary: Draw the kanji to look them up)
Kotoba (Dictionary: I use when looking up Kanji by primitives)

Other iPhone study Apps I kind of like:
NihongoUp
Japanese Particles
Anki (smart.fm deck)

Learning through conversation is very important, but the specific characteristics of a worth while language partner are often left assumed. I've seen a lot of non-natives with nasty habits because they didn't spend much time with 'good teachers'.

I'm talking teachers, friends, and classmates who don't correct you. They assume you'll self correct as you learn more, but that doesn't always happen. Pronunciation, tonal, grammar structures, and word choice can really get down on you once you're, say, already thinking fluently in the language.

If someone doesn't correct you more times than you can remember it's not enough. Everyone likes someone who's polite but I'd rather have in your face nit-picky teachers and friends. Many native speakers are also worried about face, so you might have to insist more than once. Don't feel bad, either, most people like to help a friend.

@Thomas exactly right. I also study Russian and the cultural differences are very apparent; Russian people LOVE to correct you and tell you exactly what you said wrong, even if it's some fairly subtle aspect of pronunciation. Chinese people seem much more inclined to tell you "Wow, your Chinese is really good!" even if you only know how to say three things poorly.

@Thomas - That is very true. The hard part becomes when you are on a roll and they plan on correcting you later. The problem is they forget to correct you when later arrives. Often times, you are the one who has to be extremely hard on yourself.

A second issue on the grammar front, for spoken at least, is that people in most languages, Chinese included, don't speak using proper grammar. Street slang is often very rough. Street slang is full of quips, inside jokes, partial sentences and a bunch of other stuff.

To be honest, I have never met anyone who had a good spoken language partner. (I am sure 5 people will pop up saying they have since I just wrote that.) The easiest way to get one to really help is to just read aloud an essay that is at your level and have them correct all of your pronunciation and tones. That is incredibly boring for the both of you. It will do wonders, though. Rereading essays over and over will also do wonders for your 语感 and characters.

@west316 I have had three excellent language partners. One was an older Argentinian who had worked as a professor and translator. Another was an older Chinese man who would correct even my tiniest errors of pronunciation. And the third was my wife, who was originally my Spanish tutor. ;)

One useful exercise is to for you to say something and ask them to repeat the way that they would normally say it. This will often highlight errors in word choice and pronunciation.

The essay idea is good but it doesn't require you to think on your feet. When I was studying Spanish in Guatemala, they would make us tell stories in Spanish (something embarrassing, something funny, a story about a friend, a dream, whatever), get us to talk about subjects that interested us, etc. That was amazingly helpful.

James

www.ajatt.com

The site is about learning Japanese to fluency, but the method applies equally well to Chinese (I'm doing it now! ^^)

I think I first heard of ajatt on these hear forums nearly a year ago, read the whole site in one sitting, and never looked back. Would be a shame not to pass it on.

@west316 I guess it depends on what you mean by expensive. Khatzumoto built a full immersion environment while living in Arizona for less than $1000. Thanks to the internet there are many languages that you can immerse yourself in without even going there.

James and all,

If you are after free readers, there is this site www.clavisinica.com/resources.html that has lots of reading practice with audio on many topics. 'Stepping stones' for beginners, 'Chinese voices project' for intermediate, and 'text sampler' for advanced. Most of these tools are for free.

If only I had the time to do all this practice!!!!

Cheers,
Donna

Interesting points everyone! All this talk about language partners has inspired me to print off some flyers for language exchange and post them up in Chinatown.

Donna--many thanks for the suggestions. I haven't been able to find a copy of "The Lady in the Painting" for a reasonable price online, so I might hold off on it. The link you posted, above, looks promising.

James

I learn japanese- and think Twitter is an exellent aid for picking up new words/expressions. It is easy and interesting to check daily and offers a good bite sized piece of study material; reflecting generally more spoken language.

Not sure what the Chinese stance on twitter is but it could be useful.

Read! Read! Read!

Once you have reached a certain level it is important that you absorb as much of the language as possible. Listening to 'real life' language is probably still too difficult (honestly, try to really understand a tv series, not just the general meaning, but in detail. Hit the pause button frequently and analyse the subtitles! You will probably discover that it is not at all easy). I watch tv-series on DVD but just to get a feel for the language and to improve my listening skills. I am happy if I understand enough to be able to follow the story.

Very good reading material can be bought in any Chinese bookshop. So if you go to China look around in a bookstore in the education department and look for reading material for primary school students. These books are cheap and full of stories. Don't be too ambitious at first. I read texts that are intended for 10 year old students now and I feel it is just right for my level (2.000 characters and 2200 words now). I sit down and read the story looking up every new word in a dictionary. This really works for me.

Marc

@jimi02 - you can also try Craigslist for finding language partners and you might want to try posting those flyers on a local university campus, if there is one.