I work in the Japanese public school system and am required to use a textbook created by the government. Today we learned about greetings from all over the world. We heard short clips and watched videos by native speakers from an assortment of countries. In each clip a student would say a short message in their native tongue and then would translate the message for the viewers into English.

What I found most interesting was how two countries, Japan and China, were portrayed. For Japan the two students -- the Japanese clip was twice as long as the others -- who were chosen spoke in the Tokyo dialect and their English was close to native-level; for China the child who was chosen mumbled his Chinese and could barely speak English at all! I started laughing at how blatant it was.

I was wondering: does the reverse occur in China? Is there subtle or blatant government propaganda in textbooks as well?

That's funny. When I was in Inner Mongolia in northern China, I was at an English corner session and somehow Japanese came up, and a group of 8-18 year-olds were all telling me how much they despise Japanese. After going on and on and using very strong language, I asked them to raise their hand if they ever met a Japanese person. No one raised their hands... I'd argue that the Chinese hate the Japanese a lot more, but they also have a good reason to because of history. They really need to get over it though.

I'm Japanese. I think there's still a lot of prejudice against Chinese but I wouldn't have expected public education to be so blatantly anti-Chinese. What a shame.

On the other hand though, most of us think Kung Fu is awesome and go crazy over Chinese food; we are generally interested in Chinese culture more than most of the other cultures in the world. Recently Korean pop culture became very trendy, too. However, the Japanese Internet is full of right-wing dingbats. I'd like to think of them as a very vocal small minority, but I'm not sure how it really is.

Here in Taiwan, which is where I live, people like Japan. A lot. Whenever I introduce myself as a Japanese, the reaction is very positive. Everything Japanese is overpriced and highly regarded. I'd think that's very different from the mainland.

I think it's somewhat to do with the idea that both sides see a reflection of each other in the ethics behind their own wrongdoings, but separated in time. Japan more in the past, China of recent.

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2012/05/07/south-korea-steps-up-fight-against-human-flesh-pills-from-china/

The only way to get over it is by decent education, open discussion, free speech in media, cultural changes, larger middle class traveling and interested in other cultures, big changes in government, etc etc.

So realistically that won't happen anytime soon in China! Of course every individual is different but regarding the majority I think East Asian countries in general have cultural traditions that are an obstacle to or slowing down the process of opening up to other countries and participting in discussions of sensitive issues. As far as I know all East Asian countries don't approve that much of each other outside economics and they're all to blame for it.

For e.g. the governments of Germany and Holland and many of its people too have come to the point where they're quite proud of the closer relationship and actually wanna safeguard it for many reasons. The rivalry is there but they're not in the pointing-business anymore. Between China and Japan the main reason to have close interactions is for economic reasons, I don't think they're at the point at all where they wanna safeguard their current 'understanding' for any other reason but trade. Luckily they both need each other:)

Regarding textbooks in China, from what I've heard (and seen in my Chinese textbooks) there are lots of propaganda/one-sided story telling going on, but that shouldn't come as a surprise. And there is still the majority of older people in China who come out of a war museum wanting to rip of a Japanese' neck. I'm sure this feeling is passed on smoothly to their children. Just joking! Slightly.

@Schnabelhund I agree China Japan S-Korea and Taiwan do share a lot of content, each other's tv series, products and inevitably cultural traditions, that can only be good.

I haven't been to Taiwan but from what I know Taiwan is much more developed than mainland China in all departments except economy, am I right? I would almost say that if in the mainland they hate Japanese, then in Taiwan they love Japanese. The two have grown really far apart, sadly.

@Schnabelhund: I do not think that is true. As my wife put it last month: "Chinese people do not like the Japanese, but we like their cars" (when I pointed out that there seemed to be a disproportionate amount of Honda, Toyota, Nissan and other Japanese brand name vehicles in a certain area in Beijing).

Yea Chinese are pretty pragmatic when it comes to the things that have a social status impact. Japanese products are hold in high regard, Korean fashion is followed, American Apple products are bought en masse. Hateful feelings and the products of countries are often unrelated unless there's some political boycot.

@Elwin
I think Taiwan is more developed in almost every respect including economy if you take its size into account. Of course Taiwan's GDP can't compete with China's, but GDP ｐｅｒ capita is about four times as high here. Much of what Taiwan's economy relies on is outsourcing to China; 90% of all laptops in the world are made by Taiwanese corporations in the Mainland, as nicely put in "6 Secret Monopolies You Didn't Know Run the World" on cracked:
http://www.cracked.com/article_18845_6-secret-monopolies-you-didnt-know-run-world_p2.html

I don't know a big deal about how China 'feels' first-hand to say anything, though. I was in China twice; once mostly in Beijing which I think is an exceptional city and once mostly hopping around in rural areas of Southern China. But I think it's quite safe to say that Taiwan is a developed country while China is a developing one.

@范博涵
Yeah I guess, but it's not like the people have much of a choice, is it? Other than Japanese cars, I can only think of Hyundai as a major brand around here from the top of my hat. They might be buying Japanese cars because American or European cars would be more expensive. How about electronics?

@Schnabelhund; that's some mighty generalizations....

@Neil
Of course. The topic is "I don't think Japan likes China". If you know how to talk about it without generalizing anything, please tell me how.

Here in 哈尔滨, I've asked my students before about the Japanese, and, as has been mentioned before, they LOVE Japanese culture (especially anime and manga), but they are highly influenced by their grandparents in how they feel about Japanese people. I've explained to them that most of the Japanese people living today had absolutely nothing to do with what happened 70 years ago, as well as it being the government that chose to use its military to enact the atrocities, but that doesn't dissuade them one bit. Any ground given in the argument is usually due to my being older and their teacher than any understanding of the situation.

I think many countries have this situation, though, whether it's with another country or even within the country itself. First example that comes to my mind is blacks and whites when it comes to the slavery issue, and increasingly (with time and people dying) the civil rights movement.

@Elwin You suggested increased tourism would improve the situation but I would suggest that it seems to hurt things more.

It is interesting actually under the current administration in Taiwan, ties between Taiwan and the mainland have improved. Yet because of an increase of tourism, resentment among Taiwanese of the Chinese has vastly grown. The news stations seem to constantly show Chinese acting out here by carving their names in 2000 year old trees, putting their hands on delicate rocks that are national treasures, engraving on bronze plaques at national landmarks, shouting in the National Palace Museum, defrauding locals, stealing park items, buying one small item at the night market and then demanding 20 sets of chopsticks, stealing tissue paper packs off of tables, and even stealing a football-sized stone from river bank. Sadly when asked why they abuse Taiwanese the response is always, "What?? We are Brothers! What is wrong?!"

Heck, I saw a news that some Chinese got sight of the first lady's elementary school, so they decided trespass and go in to watch class uninvited. They then proceeded to take pictures of the children in class and one tourist opened a child's pencil box in front of the pupil and started rummaging through it before stealing some items for keepsakes.

Here in Kaohsiung the tourist are highly despised. I've seen signs on restaurant doors that say 'No Chinese allowed' The tour companies are smart though and manage to keep Chinese separated from the local populace. For instance there is a Hotpot restaurant that recently opened that seems to only serve tour buses. And a Hakka 'Culture restaurant'(unlike the real ones) is really only a big gift shop with exorbitant prices that only serves these groups. The night market they send them to is the 'Tourist' market which means prices are high and now, after the legions of Chinese have arrived, the market seems to have lost 50% of stalls and customers.

For someone who loves Chinese language, culture, and history it is sad to see these people act like this. I personally think the government here is far to lax and should be strict, Singapore style. Instead they stick a 80 year old security guard with a whistle guarding one of the most abused national treasures.

@dfoxworthy I didn't mean incoming tourist but just that people traveling abroad becoming more world citizens is helpful.. I totally agree with what you said, mass tourism can be a problem and have a reverse effect for the local population.
A couple of months ago I went to Thailand and have witnessed almost the same problems you mentioned. There were many discussions and scuffles between Thai and Chinese people, I got some examples........
A Chinese mother and her daughter who spoke Aussie English were treated quite rudely by the hostel staff while me and my sister got fine treatment. The staff didn't even wanna call the boss for the keys to open the lock so the girl could get her passport for her flight. Eventually they arranged that the boss would be there in the morning at 7am, but the girl begged them for 6.30am otherwise she would miss her flight. The staff didn't give any eye contact and I doubt the boss had really shown up earlier in the morning. The Chinese mother and daughter spoke clear mandarin together and were very polite, it was kind of a case of 'how a part of the group can ruin it for everyone'. My sister with her bright smile got a very different response.....!!

Then another example I hope to never see again was in a Sri Lankan flight back from Thailand to Beijing. Before landing a young Chinese guy stood up to get his suitcase while we needed to tighten the belt. The Sri Lankan stewardess repeatedly ordered him to sit down, he screamed back and ignored her. Eventually she walked through the hall ready to push him or something but some other Chinese pulled her away and started screaming. Other stewards came between and after some more screaming things calmed down, while landing. The guy still had the guts to get his suitcase immediately after we touched the ground and an older man close to him started screaming again towards the stewards. And all this after spending 春节 in Thailand, how relaxing, lol.

This by no means are just the Chinese tourists, it's global, I happened to be there at Spring Festival.

Oh, I have another one. I was in the boat from Ko Tao to Ko Samui, near perfect blue water, hot sunshine, beautiful islands.. And what ya get? Chinese screaming arguing betwe.. Ah, time for my siesta:)

Very interesting responses. To chime in, albeit a bit off my original topic, I think that traveling and more exposure will let people see a country from a different perspective. The country itself does not change; the only thing that changes is our perception of it.

I did not mean to pick on the Chinese either. The clip I saw also showed Korea in a slightly negative light as well. I do not think that Japan likes Korea all that much either. On TV they always have programs that show how Japanese tourists pay more for Korean goods in Korea. Mass media is manipulating Japanese opinion with many messages.

What I find most interesting, however, is how America is not picked on as much even though we fought with Japan in WWII.

Really? Last time I checked Japanese TV, it was full of Korean pop music, TV ｓｅｒｉｅｓ, food; Korean this, Korean that. I could take the generalization in your first post, but you might take it too far this time around.

From what I know about German media I was following when I lived in Germany, China was rarely portrayed in favorable light either. Still I wouldn't just say "Germany doesn't like China" because I know that wouldn't be accurate.

People at the wrong end of the stick tend to see things rather differently...

1. If Chinese people still harbor ill feeling against the Japanese it's hardly surprising, but they don't need to "get over it". Maybe a first step would be to not keep making them remember it. Although I don't accept the need for revenge, it's very understandable that Chinese people still remember atrocities that were committed in China. Imagine if your relatives were murdered or made to become prostitutes, saying get over it probably isn't goanna help (on Japanese crimes, take a look at A Plague Upon Humanity, Barenblatt).

2. About Chinese tourists, it's hard to believe some of the comments here. The vast amount of Chinese people I have met (abroad or not) have been very nice, so I don't really see what is to be gained by saying these kinds of things. Either way, Taiwanese business will be changing their tune pretty soon I'll wager ("Chinese visitors reported spending an average of 11,000 euros on shopping per trip to Europe"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-14/chinese-tourists-to-n-z-outspend-visitors-from-u-s-.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-01/lvmh-skips-european-austerity-raising-prices-for-chinese.html)

3. On the Japanese, the fact that someone like the major of Nanjing can still get away with denying the massacre of millions of Chinese people (http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/stories/nagoya-mayor-denies-nanjing-massacre-chinese-netizen-reactions.html) shows that Japan can learn a lot from Germany with regards to atoning for past crimes. It's not an exact parallel, but can you imagine the major of Hamburg getting away with denying the holocaust and still being in his job? This must run deeper than a few "right-wing dingbats" and is an accepted part of the culture.

In fact it's part of the culture across the Western World. The Brit's colonial empire, the eradication of the Native Americans by the US and so on. In fact The US was complicit and supportive in the Japanese starting to become an empire in Korea and Taiwan (see for example The Imperial Cruise, Bradley). It's very common in my experience for people to be either ignorant or in denial about one's own past but be able to list in details crimes of official enemies (Mao killed millions etc etc!?)

This is all basically part of the same phenomenon you see across the developed world, fear of immigrants from poorer countries ("They took our jobs!") and ignorance (willfully or not) about your own past. C'est la vie.

@Schnabelhund

You're right. I guess I am just biased in what I see. I think all humans are.

@Antimacassar

"so I don't really see what is to be gained by saying these kinds of things."

People need to vent their feelings; I doubt any malice was intended. When emotions get involved rational thought is the first thing that goes. I think every person can recall a bad experience while traveling and those memories are the ones that tend to surface when talking about a large abstract entity like a country.

@anntimacassar

The "get over it" that I meant is very similar to the US stance towards Germany and Japan. US and Japan are some of the best friends in the world of Americans, and we nuked them. That Japanese surprised attack the US and slaughtered thousands of service men who weren't even at war. In my whole life(I am young), I have never experienced or seen prejudice against Japanese or Germans(out side of a movie) based on this history, except in China.

In Taiwan, text books are anti-Japanese as the KMT writes them. The Japanese extorted the land, forced women into prostitution and killed many people during their occupation. The Chinese did a lot of the same things to Taiwan as well. And there are a lot of people here who love Chinese and/or Japanese as they 'got over it'. In East Asia there is so much hate among the Chinese-Japanese-Korean rivalries, amazingly the Taiwanese seem to get along with each of these better than any other of those three.

That being said, the Japanese really hurt themselves when they don't acknowledge a lot of what they did. They also have a bad history of apologizing about their ancestor's crimes. Of course the Chinese will never apologize about the mass murder the did on their own people.

As far as the tourism goes, when I was living in France, the Chinese were well known to travel by bus, only eat cheap Chinese food, stay in the cheapest possible hotels, snap a few quick pictures of landmarks, and spend all day shopping at factory outlets for Louis Vuitton, Channel, ect. That's where that 11,000E goes. Locals loathed them as they swarmed shops half destroying everything on display by ripping packing open to see what things were like before buying.

As I said, its too bad. Hopefully they can modernize and because more socially acceptable like the rest of the planet as they get richer. I personally believe it is the cultural revolution to blame as Taiwanese are dramatically different people since they were able to hold on to the real Chinese culture.

I should also add I know quite a few Chinese that are quite international and are quite respectable. Although this is an exaggeration, I am not talking about people who studied in the US,can speak fluent English, have been to 27 countries because their parents run factories in 13 of them, or anyone who is friends with foreigners. I am talking about people who on a daily bases go to the court yard to 扭秧歌 and stare at you constantly, tap on your sunglasses(yes, really) to see if you will react,and rub your head to see what its like, as there is a big difference between the two.

@icecraem

Don't sweat it, I know it's hard to get the nuances of the media :)
I'd like to believe that we have fairly diverse media. For starters, why don't you try to compare what 朝日新聞 and 読売新聞 have to say about news involving China?

@Antimaccassar

"About Chinese tourists, it's hard to believe some of the comments here. The vast amount of Chinese people I have met (abroad or not) have been very nice, so I don't really see what is to be gained by saying these kinds of things. Either way, Taiwanese business will be changing their tune pretty soon I'll wager ('Chinese visitors reported spending an average of 11,000 euros on shopping per trip to Europe')"

Nobody was badmouthing Chinese tourists for personal gain. Many of them actually *do* yell and litter a lot and try to cut the line every chance they get, no matter how nice your Chinese friends are, and my two roommates (one from Shandong, one from Liaoning) agree.

Of course there are caveman-like tourists from every country, but in many of them they tend to be the exception, not the average (I wouldn't go as far as to say "the rule"). And I am well aware that there are many well-behaved Chinese people, too (such as my roommates).

And yes, they do dump a lot of money here. It makes a lot better for business, but it doesn't do wonders for the impression they make on the Taiwanese.

@Schnabelhund

“Many of them actually *do* yell and litter a lot and try to cut the line every chance they get”

I agree that it’s annoying when people cut in line but it’s not really such a big deal is it? Plus it’s always important to keep in mind the fact that China has a huge population. The per capita rate of this kind of behavior is probably the same as in the west (at least in the big cities), but because there are (relatively) more Chinese people doing it it than people from other countries it looks worse than it really is. Suffice to say that this problem probably won’t even be mentioned in the near future.

“Of course there are caveman-like tourists from every country, but in many of them they tend to be the exception, not the average (I wouldn't go as far as to say "the rule"). And I am well aware that there are many well-behaved Chinese people, too (such as my roommates).”

Right, my point exactly, every country has its bad apples, so what’s the point in singling out people from the mainland? If we just go by the bad examples it’s pretty easy to come up with examples from any country you like… (http://www.rense.com/general42/tuoris.htm).

@dfoxworthy

1. "The "get over it" that I meant is very similar to the US stance towards Germany and Japan. US and Japan are some of the best friends in the world of Americans, and we nuked them. That Japanese surprised attack the US and slaughtered thousands of service men who weren't even at war. "

I guess you haven’t been to Okinawa, I imagine someone living there would dispute your being “best friends”. It’s interesting that you bring up Pearl Harbour though, since it’s an instructive case. I wont go through the whole shameful history (see the source mentioned in my previous post) but it was stolen (literally) in 1898 for reasons of money and power under the cover of a racist ideology. Money since sugar was grown there (this is where the Dole company was established), and power since the US wanted to dominate the pacific. Of course the natives were against the annexation but still, who cares about them right? So although the Japanese attack was most certainly a crime (although it palls in comparison to the US “nuking them”), it must be seen in it’s context: i.e. two powerful countries vieing for supremacy in the Pacific.

Another interesting fact is that in 1894-with no declaration of war-Japanese torpedo boats surprised Russian ships at Port Arthur (大连) and Incheon. Apparently the Americans were delighted, amongst many quotes this one from Roosevelt to his son stands out: “I was thoroughly well pleased with the Japanese victory, for Japan is playing our game”. As I wrote above, things look very differently depending on which end of the stick you are.

2. “That being said, the Japanese really hurt themselves when they don't acknowledge a lot of what they did. They also have a bad history of apologizing about their ancestor's crimes. Of course the Chinese will never apologize about the mass murder the did on their own people.”

I’m glad you mentioned that The Chinese didn’t apologize for their own crimes against their own people, since I was referring to crimes committed against other people, a bit of a difference there. Still I’m sure they could learn a lot from the US example (maybe they did): Apparently on an Oglala Sioux reservation “the per capita income is around $7,000 a year, less than one-sixth of the national average, and life expectancy is about 50 years.” (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/04/us-stolen-land-indian-tribes-un). Still, I’m sure it’s probably their own fault so no need for apologies over your ancestor’s crimes. Maybe you could both take a leaf out of Germany’s book though, which has not only apologized over its crimes, but has even gone to such heights as paying compensation, something the women forced into prostitution during the Japanese occupation are still fighting in the courts to get.

3. As for the tourists...

"As I said, its too bad. Hopefully they can modernize and because more socially acceptable like the rest of the planet as they get richer."

It must be hard to rise to your heights of modernity and social brilliance, but, like I already said, for the most part I think they already do a pretty good job. It might (shock horror!?) even be the case that we could actually learn something from them...The Chinese are quite modest for example, and I personally don't see why that's a bad thing.

"I agree that it’s annoying when people cut in line but it’s not really such a big deal is it?"

If it's not that big a deal for you, good for you, but it is for the Taiwanese. Not even in the oh-so-well-behaved Japan have I seen the art of lining up brought to such perfection like here. Taiwanese people line up. For everything. Therefore, if I were to cut in line, the people in the line would blindly assume I'm in the right. Because cutting in would be totally insane!

I spent a total of 6 weeks in China. I wasted a lot of time by applying Taiwanese intuition for how lines work.

"The per capita rate of this kind of behavior is probably the same as in the west (at least in the big cities), [...] every country has its bad apples, so what’s the point in singling out people from the mainland?"

My point exactly is that the per capita rate of this behavior is indeed very high amongst the Chinese. I lived in Berlin for long enough to see tourists from all over the world; some places of course attract crowds and crowds of tourists, but never saw littering, line-cutting, yelling or spitting there to an annoying degree. I can see you want to save the Chinese's face but there is no denying that they can be a pretty ill-behaved bunch of tourists.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are assholes. I assume they don't intend any malice; they just have never learned that they're not supposed to shout and litter because their mannerisms don't belong here. A few decades ago, when Japan was an uprising economical power, people could finally afford to go abroad and did travel in huge groups a lot. They got culture shocks every time they turned around. It'll just take some time for the Chinese to become more travel-savvy.

And the Party seems to agree:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-10/09/content_704315.htm
http://www.china.org.cn/english/2006/Oct/183079.htm
http://uts.academia.edu/JennyChio/Papers/326020/Chinas_Campaign_for_Civilized_Tourism_What_to_Do_When_Tourists_Behave_Badly
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HJ05Ad01.html

@Schnabelhund

“I spent a total of 6 weeks in China.”

Maybe six weeks is enough for you to size up a country as big as China but in the six years that I have lived in China it’s my experience that these problems aren't as bad as people here are making out and that they are getting a lot better. I rarely see this kind of behavior where I live and only the other day I was in 珠海 buying a ticket at the train station and everyone was queuing up with only 2 exceptions, one to let a blind man to the front and the other was someone trying to push in who was told by everyone else to get to the back, which he then proceeded to do.

“they can be a pretty ill-behaved bunch of tourists.”

I’m sure they’ll take a long time to reach Japanese heights, but please let me know when you see a story involving hundreds of Chinese tourists in an orgy with Japanese prostitutes in Tokyo on September 2nd. Then we’ll know that they’ve really made it!

“And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are assholes.”

If you don't think they are assholes then sorry but, frankly speaking, ur attitude still strikes me as pretty arrogant. I know what you are saying about the spitting and queue jumping, but let’s face it, if China is roughly 10 or 20 years behind Taiwan and Japan then maybe the invasion of 1937(at least!?)-1945 may be in some way related to that problem. It’s always hard to say if a situation is really good or bad (塞翁失马) but I think it’s fair to say that the destruction of half of China and the deaths of millions of people probably isn't going to be good for future development. I’m not saying there is a direct link, but it seems to me fair to say that the Japanese people bear some level of responsibility for the present state of China. So, to use an analogy, if I beat up a man in the street and steal his wallet, then as he gets up and hobbles away I criticize his bad posture and ugly features (when I should be assisting him and returning the money) then I think most people would agree that such a situation is moral reprehensible. Just some food for thought.

Anyway, instead of focusing on the negatives why don’t we look to the positives like how friendly, helpful and nice Chinese people are. If you travel in China you will never be short of someone to help if you ever need it and I have never had any problems related to my personal safety. I Look forward to hearing your examples…

"Maybe six weeks is enough for you to size up a country as big as China but in the six years that I have lived in China it’s my experience that these problems aren't as bad as people here are making out and that they are getting a lot better."

Who ever said that my experiences will match everyone else's?
Who ever said it's not getting better? In fact, my point exactly. "It'll just take some time for the Chinese to become more travel-savvy." Read: "It'll be better soon."

Again, if you think the problems aren't that bad, GOOD! I didn't complain while I was in China, either. All I'm saying is how many tourists behave HERE and how they are perceived by the locals HERE; I didn't even say I what I personally think of them. Calm down a little.

"I’m sure they’ll take a long time to reach Japanese heights, but please let me know when you see a story involving hundreds of Chinese tourists in an orgy with Japanese prostitutes in Tokyo on September 2nd. Then we’ll know that they’ve really made it!"

Yes, we are terrible. I bet that wasn't an isolated incident at all. At least you could have linked to BBC or something along the line instead of rense.com; you know, the site run by conspiracy theorist and holocaust "revisionist" Jeff Rense. I'll do it for you:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3146514.stm

"If you don't think they are assholes then sorry but, frankly speaking, ur attitude still strikes me as pretty arrogant. I know what you are saying about the spitting and queue jumping, but let’s face it, if China is roughly 10 or 20 years behind Taiwan and Japan then maybe the invasion of 1937(at least!?)-1945 may be in some way related to that problem."

Two Sino-Japanese wars, occupation, Warlord Era, civil war, Cultural revolution... history sure wasn't very nice to China. HOWEVER, that's not going to magically change how they're seen in Taiwan. What do you want me to do about it? "Relax people, they had a tough history" won't convince any of the locals here; especially as they had a tough 20th century as well.

"I’m not saying there is a direct link, but it seems to me fair to say that the Japanese people bear some level of responsibility for the present state of China. So, to use an analogy, if I beat up a man in the street and steal his wallet, then as he gets up and hobbles away I criticize his bad posture and ugly features (when I should be assisting him and returning the money) then I think most people would agree that such a situation is moral reprehensible. Just some food for thought."

Oh gimme a fucking break. When did we EVER speak about Chinese tourists in Japan?? WTF does it have to do with Taiwanese people being annoyed?? If you think that the fact that I'm Japanese makes my point any less valid, go screw yourself. I don't have to take that kind of ad hominem (overused expression, but fits perfectly here) attacks. You seriously want me to rephrase this again? "Japanese people didn't know squat about how to behave abroad a few decades ago, and the Chinese will get better soon." What more do you want?

"Anyway, instead of focusing on the negatives why don’t we look to the positives like how friendly, helpful and nice Chinese people are. If you travel in China you will never be short of someone to help if you ever need it and I have never had any problems related to my personal safety."

So since you seem to think I'm some anti-Mainland Taiwan-fanboy hate monger, which I take as an insult, let me make this abundantly clear: I LOVE CHINA. It's my favorite country. I love its languages, history, arts, tea, food and, yes, people. I am perfectly aware that they are super friendly. I've never seen any negative reactions when I said that I'm Japanese, either.

"I Look forward to hearing your examples…"

One story I frequently bring up is this:
Once I lost my wallet when I was traveling in Guangxi. I realized that when I was about to pay for my hotel in advance. I got there by bus and it was the end of the line, so there was hope that I'd find the bus I was in. Unfortunately though, I couldn't recognize the bus, so when I explained what had happened, random people began asking the many bus drivers if they had found anything. The wallet couldn't be found, however, so I went to the local police station with a woman and explained my situation. Another guy bought me lunch, wished me good luck, then I went back to the hotel as there was little I could do more about it. I took a walk around town and by the end of the day, some anonymous person had taken my wallet to the police station and the police had informed the hotel's 老板; cash inside and everything.

This is by far not the only incident when people were super friendly, but this is the most memorable one.

Wrapping up...
Contrary to what you may think, I don't hate the Chinese; I love them. But it doesn't magically make me oversee their faults and it much less makes the Taiwanese understand their customs. And if the fact that there is an extensive Chinese government program to educate their own people before they travel doesn't make you even *consider* that *perhaps* there *might* be a problem for making the locals like them, what more can I do?

@Schnabelhund

My understanding of Japanese is similar to a child. I can understand most commercials but Japanese news is over my head; all nuance is lost on me. I am sure it's diverse but as an American it all looks the same.

@icecream

You live in Japan, right? I'm sure you'll understand the news pretty soon if you keep studying. Don't worry :)

edit:

I'd imagine watching the news on NHK would be a very effective way to get some input of immaculate Japanese. They have a very high standard. Don't worry if you don't get everything; nobody did ever understand everything from the beginning. I learned English from TV, too, and I think it's safe to say that TV taught me more English than school ever did. Although I needed the foundation school gave me to watch TV in English in the first place.

@Schnabelhund

NHK is boring. I have a short attention span.

There's an infinite number of things that could be considered "newsworthy" for a country. It's more instructive to see what a country presents and what they leave out than trying to decipher the language. I'm sure, over time, as my Japanese improves I will understand more linguistically, but at the moment, I have no problem recognizing which topics are seen as important in Japan. Whenever I flip through the channels I usually see people eating food. Most TV shows in Japan -- like in all countries -- are simply filler: they are designed to simply occupy the minds of the viewers.

Let’s start with the positives:

“One story I frequently bring up is this”

Great to hear (finally) a positive story about the Chinese here. I’ve had similar experiences, but here’s a memorable one:

I was traveling on the overnight train to 郑州 with a mate from university who decided to put all his valuables (his passport and his wallet (including the travel money he had saved up, US dollars and RMB probably amounting to at least half a year’s average salary in China)) inside his pillow whilst he slept. It was only as he walked out of the train station that he suddenly looked at me agog and told me that it was all still inside the pillow on the train that had already left the station. I was pretty new to China at that time and my first thought was you’ll never see that again, but he went straight to the police and had it all back within a matter of hours. Hard to believe the same thing would happen where I come from.

To the rest!

“In fact, my point exactly. "It'll just take some time for the Chinese to become more travel-savvy."”

Right, I think we agree on this point.

“All I'm saying is how many tourists behave HERE and how they are perceived by the locals HERE; I didn't even say I what I personally think of them. “

If locals perceive the mainlanders in that way it’s my personal opinion that it’s a caricature and is most probably false based on scaremongering, hearsay and ignorance not to mention newspaper sales (similar to fear of Mexicans in the US and so on). I’m sure that if you go up to the average mainland tourist they will be very nice and not engage in the kind of things that people are talking about here. Therefore I can’t see what is to be gained by giving us the low down on Taiwanese prejudices without some kind of caveat (assuming you’re right of course) except making the problem worse.

Also by not giving you own opinion on the topic you are only inviting the kind of criticism that I have given. It’s a very common tactic to attack someone by, instead of saying I hate C, saying B hates C. Not that that’s what I am saying you are doing here, but, like you’ve already pointed out, it’s hard not to deal with generalizations in this kind of environment so maybe next time in order to minimizes the possibility of giving the wrong impression you could give your own opinion or, perhaps, a more balanced one.

“HOWEVER, that's not going to magically change how they're seen in Taiwan. What do you want me to do about it?”

Unless you’re going to give an honest assessment of Japan’s role in this whole topic (yet to see) or at least some kind of sensitivity to the topic then I would say it’s pretty simple, either simply don’t go on about it or at least don’t make the problem worse by spreading muck. I’m sure you don’t need me to remind you that it’s better to build bridges than destroy them.

“When did we EVER speak about Chinese tourists in Japan?? WTF does it have to do with Taiwanese people being annoyed??”

I can only assume that you missed the point of my analogy (remember it’s just that, an analogy), but I stick by what I wrote. I’m not going to spell it out, but I think you’ll find it has a grain of truth, although admittedly it’s not the best.

“If you think that the fact that I'm Japanese makes my point any less valid, go screw yourself.”

Your points are valid and of course have no relation to your nationality, but I stick to my point that people in glass houses should be very weary of throwing stones, especially the kind of stones you are throwing.

“I don't have to take that kind of ad hominem (overused expression, but fits perfectly here) attacks.”

I did write “ur attitude” (obviously related to this topic and not in general) so I can’t see how you saw that as a personal attack. I can only stress that it wasn’t intended to be taken in that way and is only a comment on what you (and others) have written here.

“But it doesn't magically make me oversee their faults”

I didn’t say that we should oversee their faults, but at the same time we shouldn't focus solely on them nor exaggerate them nor try to ‘educate’ other people of them every time the topic comes up, there are so many positives that the faults pale in comparison.

“I LOVE CHINA. It's my favorite country.”

I’m sure what you say is true, but if I’m with a group of people and they start slagging off one of my friends I think it’s the least I can do to stick up for them, especially if I just have to mention the facts.

I can only go by what you and others have wrote here but if as soon as someone mentions the Chinese and then people use it as an excuse to keep harping about their faults such a situation seems embarrassingly louche to me, negating the point you are trying to make, inflating your own sense of moral superiority whilst demeaning the people who speak the language you are trying to learn. Maybe I’m just weird though.

"If locals perceive the mainlanders in that way it’s my personal opinion that it’s a caricature and is most probably false based on scaremongering, hearsay and ignorance not to mention newspaper sales (similar to fear of Mexicans in the US and so on)."

And my personal opinion is that it's not an opinion at all but a preconception. What is this assumption based on?

"Unless you’re going to give an honest assessment of Japan’s role in this whole topic (yet to see) [...]"

What does Japan to do with Chinese tourists in Taiwan again?

"[...] or at least some kind of sensitivity to the topic then I would say it’s pretty simple, either simply don’t go on about it or at least don’t make the problem worse by spreading muck."

I didn't even bring up the topic of Chinese tourists in Taiwan until you accused those who did of badmouthing people for their personal gain. What I'm telling you is that it's not some kind of hate mongering, just some facts. So you don't believe us who see it first hand. You don't have faith in the Taiwanese media either. I get it.

"I’m sure you don’t need me to remind you that it’s better to build bridges than destroy them."

Completely agree. And you don't build bridges with complete disregard of the customs of the country you visit either, do you?

"Your points are valid and of course have no relation to your nationality, but I stick to my point that people in glass houses should be very weary of throwing stones, especially the kind of stones you are throwing."

You leave much to interpretation here. I assume I was born in a glass house by being born in Japan; throwing giant rocks stating "we were not so different some time ago". Am I right?

"I did write 'ur attitude' (obviously related to this topic and not in general) so I can’t see how you saw that as a personal attack. I can only stress that it wasn’t intended to be taken in that way and is only a comment on what you (and others) have written here."

I didn't say it's a personal attack, I said it's an ad hominem attack. You don't focus on the argument, you focus on who is saying it.

"I didn’t say that we should oversee their faults, but at the same time we shouldn't focus solely on them nor exaggerate them nor try to ‘educate’ other people of them every time the topic comes up, there are so many positives that the faults pale in comparison."

Fine, except the positives are off topic. Although I admit we are pretty far off topic now anyway, but at least it's still about anti-Chinese sentiment; btw everyone here agrees it's a shame that it exists (no matter where). If you want to talk about niceness, go on and start a thread! You can count on my participation.

"I’m sure what you say is true, but if I’m with a group of people and they start slagging off one of my friends I think it’s the least I can do to stick up for them, especially if I just have to mention the facts."

EXACTLY! So when someone says that my friends, the Taiwanese, are a bunch of ignorant scaremongered xenophobes, I'll stick up for them, by just mentioning facts.

"I can only go by what you and others have wrote here but if as soon as someone mentions the Chinese and then people use it as an excuse to keep harping about their faults such a situation seems embarrassingly louche to me, negating the point you are trying to make, inflating your own sense of moral superiority whilst demeaning the people who speak the language you are trying to learn. Maybe I’m just weird though."

I admit that my love for China has a lot to do with me learning Chinese, but guess what: there are also a lot of learners who don't care all that much for China and learn Chinese because they live in Taiwan and are in touch with Taiwanese culture. You know, the kind of people who would study Taiwanese if it were still the predominant language here. After all, It's not like I'm studying English because I'm invested in England, either.

So to take one step back again...
When tourists from China were first brought up in this thread, the description of their behavior was not some made up bullcrap to make them look bad, despite what you might see in it, that's just what I was saying in the beginning. And I assume what dfoxworthy is saying is this, and I agree: *Especially* because we're in love with the Chinese, we're concerned about their reputation. As for me, I really wish the relationship between the Chinese and the Taiwanese will get better. In fact, I'm sure it will in time.

I think we're going round in circles here but I stick by everything I've already said. If you want a reply to what you said feel free to scroll up.

Good luck with your studies.

Good luck to you, too.