The site is great, but how about offering an alternative to the PRC flag? I know some similar Chinese learning tools allow users to display a generic 中 flag if they feel strongly about Chinese politics.

I think it's fine.

You'd have to be excessively sensitive if a Chinese flag's a big deal on a Chinese language learning website.

I say keep it that way! :)

it is an interesting debate... i saw it before re: pera-pera-kun 2.0 addon to firefox.

I understand that there are many Chinese speaking people around the world, including countries with Chinese as an official language like Singapore and the P.R.C., and rogue provinces like Taiwan ;P Not only that, but tons of speakers in Malaysia, and a lot all over Asia and throughout the world. So does the P.R.C. flag represent all of them? No, except that it represents the current government controlling the place where the Chinese language originated, which to me could be an argument that it is a decent symbol for Mandarin.

You could make the argument that the Japanese flag doesn't represent either Japanese-Americans or the old empire of Japan, but it still is the country where Japanese came from and where the most people speak it, which are true for China as well...

Obviously it's not like i care that much whether a Chinese flag appears on my Skritter page or not, I just wonder if there is a valid argument for why it is such a horrible thing, even if it represents a government you (strongly) disagree with? Seriously, maybe there is, I just want to hear it explained :)

Hmm, I would vote for it being changed but not because of politics - I thought it was for time zones/locations when I first saw it. For me, I'm only studying Chinese so it's just another button I don't use.

Well, sensitive issues are like taste: there's no accounting for them. If it bothers people, we'll change it. (I would hope that people bothered by it bother to tell us.)

Flags are just the most concise way we came up with to express language choice (unless we wanted to rely on country codes ZH and JA). We do want something there to move a little bit less Chinese-centric, as Japanese needs its dues. But perhaps a 中 flag would be obvious enough?

haha.. i have to admit that I also responded before actually seeing what the button did...

I also wonder if it is worth having since it doesn't seem like a setting that people (even studying both languages) really need to switch on-the-fly...

but I don't study both so maybe people switch back and forth a lot?

It seems altogether reasonable that the flag of the country most identified with the language represents it. If the politics of the situation were that important, it seems it would be more proper to just use 中文 and 日本語 since those are probably among the first characters someone would be exposed to.

How about mascots? The dragon has long represented China: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:China_Qing_Dynasty_Flag_1889.svg
The sun has long represented Japan. This idea would fit better with Skritter's more fun oriented visual design.

I agree, it is a politically very loaded issue. I can just imagine my Taiwanese friend's reaction.

I also get annoyed when people use the UK or American flag to mean "English". A language is not the same as any one particular country. Why does it have to be a flag?

James

Not sure if this is off topic for this particular thread, but I also found the new flag a little distracting - though mostly because the bright red attracts a lot of attention in that otherwise blue part of the page.

Moreover, I wasn't sure what it was for at first; I definitely didn't realize that clicking on the Chinese flag would activate Japanese practice. Even when I saw the mouseover text, "Chinese, click to switch" I continued to assume that clicking it would do something related to Chinese, so I actually expected it to change the UI to Chinese.

If I were to reimplement it, I think I'd show both options at once and somehow indicate that the one I was not currently studying was clickable, like so:

中文 ｜ 〈日本语〉

Finally, would it be better to include it in the main part of the page instead of at the top? Right now, it shows up even on pages like the Forum, in which clicking it makes no visible change to the UI.

For me also, this is a button I would not click. I won't mention the Taiwan thing here, but I also like the 中文／日本話 markers, as it actually relates to language. But... since the rest of the UI is in English, why not just write Chinese/Japanese?
But to reiterate, why do we need this button?!?! :)

but if you use a 中 it's still the same problem since that comes from 中国, which brings you back to the same country-issuue? It would only solve the Taiwan-mainland issue to an extent since they both could be considere do tbe "real" China. Besides, if you really want to be political, who really sees china as the 'middle' country.

I you can find some problem with whatever you use.

There was an similar debate on Chinese Pera Kun's website leading the developer to change the flag to 中. Perso the PRC flag bother me quite a lot as well but I won't make a fuss about that (after all the French flag is used to represent the French languages in Belgium, Swiss and Canada).

@Sonorier : Actually it's more tricky than that. 中國 is fine because it does't refer to any "country" per se, it represent more a culture and a civilisation (Taiwan's official name is still 中華民國, check the 1t and last characters ;o) ) where the PRC flag refers to a specific country (中華人民共和國 here) and everything it represent (good and often bad) thus with political issues.

It's maybe a good reason to launch a poll on the main page :)

I would rather it be an option in the options panel. It should be obvious which language you are studying from the studying itself so no need to repeat with a flag and it would unclutter the UI a bit.

I think the point, 2shanghai is for those studying both languages to make an easy switch. So it's a pretty useful button!

I think I would prefer 中文 or 日本話 instead of an icon. From a design perspective, I think it makes more sense. (Not to mention that the layout looks weird right now. Can it say "Account" instead of my name?)

I agree that it should say 中文 and 日本話. I think it should be displayed like this:

中文 | 日本話

With the current selected language not linked.

How about:

zh | ja

instead? Not everyone knows those characters.

(The layout is broken on Chrome and Safari; will fix shortly.)

@nick: I guess it isn't safe to assume that people can read them. If you're feeling really crazy you could query the database to see if they have learned them or not to determine which to display :P

I agree with mpdaugherty's second point, ie

"Moreover, I wasn't sure what it was for at first; I definitely didn't realize that clicking on the Chinese flag would activate Japanese practice. Even when I saw the mouseover text, "Chinese, click to switch" I continued to assume that clicking it would do something related to Chinese, so I actually expected it to change the UI to Chinese. "

Similarly,I would expect a Chinese flag to switch TO Chinese, and a Japanese flag to switch TO japanese. I was astonished to see the Japanese screens - and pleasantly surprised to discover that it doesn't seem to cost any extra: cheers guys!
Of course, this isn't really important, becasue now I've seen it I know.

I would guess that anyone who is attempting to learn both Chinese and Japanese has probably got as far as learning either 中文 or 日本話 . (Surely no-one would try to start both languages at the same time, would you?)

My suggestion would be to have an option hidden away somewhere that allows dual-language users to add the switch button to their main screen. That way the main screen remains less cluttered for newbies. You also avoid having a possibly offensive flag so obviously displayed.

A dragon signifies China to me (in England), but is that valid worldwide?

One final point: if the Chinese flag is most likely to offend people from Malaysia and Taiwan, are they ever going to see it on Skritter? Are any Skritterers Malaysian or Taiwanese? I would have thought most of them already know their characters. I suppose you might get Malaysians wanting to practice Japanese.

Rachael.

I liked the flags and think zh/ja looks silly and not at all clear what they are meant to represent to newcomers. If people get so upset by the PRP flag I would suggest they are studying the wrong language.

Awww... I liked the flag. :(

good discussion...

I think zh | ja still looks weird and is even less intuitive than having the characters (or the flags).. surely not everyone associates these letters with those two languages?

I still agree that having it hidden in the settings would be preferable, but again, I'm willing to defer to those using both languages and ask their opinion. (maybe at least no need for it to appear in the forums, or anywhere besides the practice page and maybe home page?)

p.s. @stelingo - though I earlier said I can't quite follow the reasoning of those who are offended by the flag, I would not tell anyone who feels offended that they are "studying the wrong language," calm down there buddy :)

You may borrow the new "中“ flag used by Chinese Pera Kun :

http://perapera.wordpress.com/2009/12/11/alternative-chinese-flag-poll/

@Stelingo : If you 100% associate "China" & "Chinese" with the PRC that mean you need to travel a little bit in the area.

@Byzanti - good point. Burying it the options pane would make it less likely for people to see (and thus make it less likely that those learning two languages would see this nifty option).

I also just saw the new zh|ja and I have to agree with Hobees828.
This looks slightly weird to me, especially because "ja" in German means "yes"...so whenever I look at it, it takes me a moment to remember what on earth it's referring to:)
Now that I come to think of it, although I see where the two abbreviations are coming from, why does one have English as its language (Japanese) and the other Chinese Pinyin (Zhong wen)? Not really a big thing but I just noticed it:) I guess as long as everyone knows what it's referring to it doesn't really matter.

I think those are the standard computer codes for the languages - not that it necessarily makes it easier for you to understand...

Why not use the zhong1 hanzi for Chinese and the ri4 kanji for Japanese?

It'll look great and those characters are used as abbreviations for each country.

(but please use a image instead of text, I just see squares in my office computer where I skritter when the boss isn't around hehe)

I've been told that 日 isn't as good an abbreviation for Japan in Japanese as it is in Chinese.

What about "lang" or "language" and it's a dropdown where you can select "Chinese" or "Japanese" or maybe something like, "English -> Chinese", "English -> Japanese", "中文 - > 中文" or "Français -> Chinoises", etc.?

Perhaps simply as it is now, but "Chinese | Japanese" instead of "zh | ja"?

Too big, I think?

Perhaps, but would it look balanced if you put the "Username | Logout" on top?

hey guys - it's funny to see this funny little idea has generated a fair amount of controversy. Considering that the majority of Skritter users are probably only learning either Chinese or Japanese, would it make sense to put a toggle in the account settings to show/hide language switcher?

Is that a feature that people studying both languages think they would use? We could set it to default to off so you'd only have to cause to switch in on if you're studying both languages.

Also, just wanted to say that I'm really impressed to see the users of a program/site participating so actively in its development. That's awesome!

Right now I think the top-of-the-page is too crowded. "Home" is reduntant, as you can always click the logo. The language switcher is perhaps not useful for many people, and "account" is also accessible from the home screen.

So, how about just the logo, and then Forum and Blog over on the right..

I don't agree that you should have an option setting for hiding parts of the interface; most people don't bother toggling options anyway...

How about using the Skritter mascot. You could show it studying Japanese or Chinese.
Have it:
holding a book (for studying Chinese or Japanese)
wearing a bandanna with Chinese or Japanese on it
give it a Chinese / Japanese student jacket
Show it writing with a giant paint brush a Chinese or Japanese sentence
sitting in a classroom chair on top of giant map or globe Japan or China

Perhaps a good compromise would be to display the language toggle only if the user actually has vocabulary loaded in multiple languages.

@ddapore99 As much as i still don't see the need for the setting (agree with xerxes)...


skritter guys with changing bandanas?...

NICE.

Bring back the flags!

The bigger issue: China needs to drop that flag altogether. It's a bland Communist flag that owes its origins more to the USSR than anything that has to do with Chinese civilization.