Hi,
I think it would be great to have a tool to learn Pinyin. My idea is to use the same algorithm/system as for the already existing vocabulary list, but I think I would do it independend from the rest of the vocabulary. Instead of the four parts ("Writing", "Reading", "Tone", "Definition") I propose to use two: Listening and speaking.

LISTENING speaks a syllable. The student has to write down the pinyin (like "Reading") for example hen3. In an more advanced level more than one syllable could be spoken. For example hen2hao3 is spoken, but the student has to get, that hen3hao3 has to be written down (since the tones change). Since it is only about the pinyin, there is no problem with an ambiguous answer - the meaning of the words is of no no interest here.

SPEAKING gives a written pinyin. The student has to say it. Afterwards it is spoken and the student has to decide how good he was. (As in "Definition".)

Since it is not learning words, I would seperate it from the other learning system. Since the amount of pinying-syllables is pretty limited (less then 450) this system could be programmed rather static.

What do you think about it? I imagine it is some work to get it working, but it is not out of the world, is it?

Why would you want to learn pinyin seperately from the words though?! It's only a learning tool for English speakers after all, so has little relevance outside of the actual languange study.

Also I think what you've suggested is kind of already included... the 'speaking' part which can be incorporated with the reading.
For the listening part you maybe could press 'a' or click the little speaker symbol to hear the word before you type the tone in reading. But it would be easier than reading, so might screw up skritter's grading of your reading, so you're right, it would have to be a seperate tool.

Sorry! I don't mean to sound overly critical :/ Just trying to understand what the aim of your suggestion is, and its relevance to anyone else on Skritter! It could be a useful tool when introducing students to Chinese, maybe something someone could develop an app for. I wonder what everyone else thinks? How much do people use pinyin independently of the characters?

xxx

I have to say I agree to some extent with both of you. Being able to type or pronounce pinyin correctly after hearing someone speak is a very basic thing that is sadly neglected by many foreign students that I've come across here in China. Since I've been living here for a year or so my writing/reading is miles away from my speaking/listening, and I've learnt from simply listening to people and then repeat a word I didn't understand, asking for the meaning.
However since this doesn't take very long to get a grip on the app would only be vital during the first months when you're a total beginner. Of course this is individual but sooner or later you won't have any use for it, so I'd like the Skritter team to work on more long-lasting enhancements.

When recieving text messages from friends, etc, I find it easier to understand the Chinese characters rather than those sent in pinyin. The reason being is that with pinyin you slightly lose the meaning, and often the same sounds are used for different characters. When reading a message in PinYin I often have to think harder about what they mean

@Catherine, I wouldn't say that pinyin is entirely a learning tool for native English speakers only these days. Almost all the childrens books I've seen in China have both simplified Chinese and then pinyin directly below it.

@Thorondor, When I first started out I had an Anki deck that had all the sounds and some random combinations to test my listening. Might be worth a try, because by the time they would even get around to doing something like that (especially with all the work they currently have) you'll be a pinyin master haha.

@Bennyboyk, Yeah, I've found now that I can do a little more advanced reading/listening that the characters help with understanding in a way that the sound can't. So maybe as Vigator said, it's a useful tool but only in the initial stages of learning.

@孟志书, That's interesting, I didn't come across that in China. Is that to do with China's push for children to learn English then, or some other reason? It seems a bit weird to introduce a totally different writing system alongside the characters. Not that that's bad at all - I think most people will agree that Chinese students' knowledge of English puts our (at least British) lack of global awareness to shame!

At some point, we do want to make more intro content, so that Skritter can be more beginner-friendly. Something along the lines of what you're suggesting for learning the pronunciation would be cool, although I have some ideas for how to make it even cooler. Just not enough time right now.

Catherine, our global awareness is much higher than their usually very poor English!

Our knowledge of other languages, less so.

But yes, Chinese children learn pinyin. Most books for young children have both pinyin and characters. Even in novels aimed at older kids you'll find occasional pinyin for the more unusual characters (I have a copy of the Time Machine translated which still does). Mainly because chinese kids struggle with characters too!

It's probably similar to how some British schools teach kids now to read phonetically.

I suppose my interpretation has been very biased - when I visited Beijing, the schoolchildren knew more about European history than I did! Maybe that was not typical. I suppose there is a big difference between speaking the language and understanding the place...

But anyway, that's cool. I always assumed that China would be against romanization (partly based on how little I came across it in China on anything older than the Olympic sites), but having read up on it a little (in fact I came across a link on a Skritter forum post about Yuen Ren Chao) I found there's a lot more to it than that! It seems this is worth a bit more research... Sorry for jumping to conclusions!

Pinyin is an absolute must, how else could you write on a computer? I came across some people, who had just a normal, average school education, no university degree; I tried to use people like this for easy tele-marketing tasks, but I failed, because they were unable to write back to the PC the interviewee's answers (esp. names, addresses, etc. which contain not so often used characters). In this case, it's very difficult for them to get a white-collar job, although they have been clever, friendly and hardworking people.

Pinyin isn't essential for typing. A lot of Chinese input methods support stroke input (such as 五笔), and thus require no knowledge of pinyin at all. Not to mention, these days with touch screens being more prevalent I think handwriting input methods are becoming more popular.

Today on a bus ride through NYC Chinatown (I live nearby) I looked over a man's shoulder and watched him type pinyin into his HTC Sprint Android. The keyboard had all Chinese characters but I am guessing they were somehow pinyin, because as he typed, above was a list of characters that the would choose from. I searched youtube and found THIS demo but it is basically for an English speaker who wants to input pinyin on the phone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2w0gM5Tz7o

There are different styles of learning and understanding things. It seems there a quite a few people who pick things up by speaking and listening. I don't. I am very strongly visual. For example I asked my fried what how to say "what does it cost?", he tells me, I turn around to the shop owner and I already forgot what my friend just told me, I turn around, ask him again, and forget it after not even a few seconds. While when I see a caracter and "understand" it (as I call it) I will not forget it. Pinyin is for me the way to make the sound visual. The visual I am able to combine with the way my tongue and mouth has to move. Once I manage that and you give me a second (since I am a total beginner) I am able to say the words almost perfectly - acording to my chinese friends (who are not too shy to say that something sucks if it does - I am in the North). Boztom line is, that Pinyin is the only way for me to remember how to speak words. Listening does not do the trick for me.

There are tons of videos that attempt to teach pinyin on YouTube like the following:

Chinese Pinyin in 6 Mins - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9Ayvjy-Dgs

7 days for Mandarin pronunciation - Chapter 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69OsAH8MP3M&feature=related

For a great deal about pinyin and the how and why it was developed try "Chinese Language: Fact and Fantasy" by John De Francis.

I disagree - I think pinyin is essential for western learners of Chinese. Pinyin is the most efficient way to type on a computer (especially a western computer).

The other fantastic thing about pinyin is that it virtually gives you all the tools for speaking mandarin. Learn all the consonants and vowels very well. After learning each sound well simply apply tones and you can speak every word in Chinese - voila!

I agree that reading text in pinyin is very difficult and confusing and it should not be a crutch for people avoiding characters. But pinyin IS a very very powerful tool for everyone to properly speak, learn, and efficiently type.