With the new update I'm starting to upload some new example sentences, but after I do the update on my pc they don't appear on the IOS APP when I'm doing the reviews.
Are they subject to moderation?
if so, it's going to be really annoying, as by the time it would take for them to be evaluated I would already be studying other words.

By the way I think I think reading the example sentences has great potential for the long term memorization of gramatical patterns.

I agree.
But the value is only great if the sentences are all CORRECT.

I understand this point, but if would be really helpful if you could use the sentences you upload while awaiting for moderation.
Otherwise I will need to continue writing the sentences in my personal descriptions, which creates a mess.

桓马林: When entering the sentences, did you look for proper segmentation? If the segmentation is wrong, Skritter cannot select it.
Example: you have as vocab 便宜, a sentence where it is used as 很便宜，Skritter knows the vocab 很便宜 also and therefore has segmented it in this way, so it will not show up under 便宜.
This might be the reason for your problem.
If you know the sentences, you can send me an e-mail and I have a look next week, as Nick and Scott are on the road. I can't promise anything, but at least give it a try. You can use the message tab on the user info.
I have made a list with 700 sentences and I have seen such problems quite often.
BTW, new sentences do not need acceptance, they are automatically put into the db. Only changed definitions need acceptance, however, the item with the new definition is put under your custom definitions until the time, when the acceptance really occurs.

Maybe I've missed something, but the new example sentences in the iOS app make me very annoyed, hinder my learning, and really make me wish I hadn't updated the app to the new version:

- they make studying much slower, as for even very simple words of which the usage I know very well my attention is drawn to reading the example sentence. They take the pleasurable flow of Skrittering away.

- there are mistakes in the sentences, especially the accompanying pinyin.

- the example sentences often have vocabulary that I have not learned yet. Hence, instead of enforcing my learning of 长辈, the example sentence 我尊敬长辈 just directs my attention to the word 尊敬 that I don't know yet and that I don't want to start learning now.

- the translations of the sentences into English are sometimes totally lacking. Furthermore, I even found a translation of an example sentence in Swedish (for 咦)!

- some example sentences refer to a word meaning that I do not want to focus on, such as for 代: the sentence 你可以代我去吗? refers to the meaning of 代 "substitute; replace" and not the meaning that I really want to remember, "era; generation; dynasty"

- sometimes they do not provide any added value to just reading the description of the word, such as for 世界: "你好, 世界!" or 记住: "请记住", whereas sometimes they are excessively long such as for 倒: ＂我们都不想去他的生日派对, 我倒是去, 他到底是我们的同学."

- sometimes they just seem to be other people's memory rules, such as in 圆, of which the example sentence is just "原...圆", translated to "origin/source...circle/round". This does not help my learning at all!

For someone that does not use a teacher and textbook for studying Chinese but just starts with Skritter (for example by just choosing to study the words for HSK1, 2 and 3), the example sentences might be helpful. However, I want to study the words based on the example sentences that my teacher, textbook and daily life in China provide me, not random stuff by other people.

Hello, fully agree with omlaakso, efficency drops dramatically even if it is a good idea to improve the learning : if you have some sentences in mind, i think it's easier to remember the words.
Of course i expect sentences to be accurate !

Please put a disable button in the settings or advanced study panel, so we can remove the feature if we want.
Thx

Another option would probably be to hide the example sentences from the standard view in the same way as the mnemonics are hidden: if I want to see the example sentence, I just press the small downward arrow to see it. In this way the example sentence will not draw the Skritterer's attention away from Skrittering as it now does but will nevertheless be available if he/she needs to see an example of the (usually many) possible usages of the word.

Fully agree with omlaakso. I absolutely NEEDED the example sentences, because I think they provide a better understanding of the meaning in a true context, and for new words they are undoubtedly helpful. However, when you have lists under review and you just want to refresh the writing or the tones, they do not provide any value. If they were available as the mnemonics, it could be a good option.
Anyway, I DO love having now those sentences, please do not remove them!

Fundamentally the question is "What is Skritter about, anyway", to which the FAQ on this website answers "Characters" (in bold)! In a similar vein, the FAQ states that Skritter is "great for learning the characters, but it's designed to be used with a good teacher or other language learning resources. Skritter doesn't teach you to write sentences with correct grammar, but it does give you a good foundation of characters so that you have a vocabulary to build sentences from. So we recommend using Skritter in conjunction with other learning methods, like textbooks, classes, or going to China or Japan."

This is exactly what I am paying for! Showing the example sentences to the iOS app users automatically is a (I think failed) attempt to try to make Skritter into a language learning app, and at the same time making it way worse as a character learning app (at which it was super good already).

So fundamentally I don't think example sentences really belong to Skritter, but I'm fine as long as I don't have to see them.

This time I don't fully agree with omlaakso, but I guess he won't mind :-)

I do agree on the statement that Skritter should NOT try to become a "language learning app", that's true, but (at least for me) it has been complex sometimes along the last year to understand some words when they are not put into context.

Let me give you just one example of what I mean: assuming that it is the first time I see it, if I take the word "烦恼"/fánnǎo, I see in Skritter the translation "worried; vexed", but... I already knew that another word for "worried" is "担心"/dānxīn so... where is the difference (if any)? And if I go to a dictionary to find out the translation of 烦恼 I also see "trouble", and at that moment I think "wait a second, 'trouble' was also one of the meanings of 问题/wèntí, wasn't it?"... So, as you see, a simple word can become a total mess when you try to get the little nuances of their meaning.
A simple but well oriented example sentence sometimes helps to get the proper understanding.

But... sometimes, as we say, it is not SO useful to see them all the time.

@ Fernando, a side note: According to our teachers here at Shenzhen University, understanding these kinds of subtle differences is one of the most difficult parts of learning Chinese, and in fact the entire 中级 class level (= one year of full-time study) is mostly about studying this stuff: as you said, for example 烦恼, 担心, 发愁, 犯愁, 焦急, 忧虑, 忧思 and 着急 all have some form of the words worry/worried/anxious in their Pleco definitions. So I don't see much hope in Skritter's lone example sentences in helping us to grasp these kinds of differences as they cannot give much cues on the context either but "using Skritter in conjunction with other learning methods, like textbooks, classes, or going to China" is the way to go.

@ malaili: good :)

agree with omlaakso.

skritter is a website/ app for learning the characters.

for the subtle differences in the usage of the different words the learner should get a proper textbook in which he/she can find example sentences en masse and also the corresponding explanations.

anyway simple and correct example sentences wont hurt here in skritter.

I don't know much about Chinese, but the example sentences on the Japanese side could only be helpful, IMHO. (The readings do have some errors until they all get corrected.) If there is a word that isn't known in a sentence, well it's a language with words in it, so that doesn't seem surprising, someone isn't born knowing all the words in a language, they become acquired over time, right? Exposure to actual language is a good thing. I personally don't understand how a target language one is studying could distract from the target language one is studying, that seems like a paradox. I could see how the English translation could be distracting though, but it's already hidden until the triangle drop-down is pressed.

Some of the sentences are a bit complex since they haven't been sorted out yet, (because the feature is brand new). The iOS app selects whichever sentence is used by the most amount of people for a word as the default sentence, which is changeable on the web version, so as time progresses the sentences will become more relevant and easier as they get created and selected by everyone and voted up to the default sentence (for both platforms).

If you were wanting to use specific sentences to accompany a textbook, you could create them and use them. It's also possible to disable example sentences for a user on a request basis, until any option would become available if it were to be implemented to hide them.

Again though for Japanese, this allows the word to be put in context. I don't think that this makes Skritter a language learning app anymore than it already was, it still feeds you words and characters, except they now have the ability to be put in context, showing how the word can actually be used. It does seem strange that could be getting in the way of studying. It's not showing mathematical diagrams, it's showing the language one is studying!

@Malaili, Omlaakso, and lc3t35: No problem, the sentences could be disabled for y'all.
Would anyone else like them disabled as well?

I use Skritter for enforcing the learning of characters/words that I have acquired from classes, textbooks, discussing with my gf, walking on the streets, watching Chinese TV, etc. so yes, exposure to actual language through these media is a good thing. However, exposure from Skritter in form of example sentences made by other (mostly non-native) people for their own learning purposes does not help my learning as I have no idea of the context from which these example sentences were derived. I think "actual" language is always language in context, and individual sentences from other people do not convey enough meaning to make them meaningful as anyone's personal learning aids.

Please disable my sentences if possible so I'll stop whining :)

Personally I like the idea, simply learning words in isolation gets gradually less effective the larger your word bank becomes, some people have yet to realise this. And yeah, so what, there are a couple of problems to iron out but it's only just been updated, have a little fricking patient. God, so many whiners on this thread, really made me bloody angry, get a grip!

Wow, so much negativity :(

I think the sentences are brilliant, and have been much more excited about doing my daily skrittering since they were introduced. We already learn the writing, reading, tones, and definition - adding sentences shows us how to actually use the words.

It's already helping me a lot.

Now I can preview new vocabulary, go to class and hear the teachers explanation, use the words correctly, and when it's time to review them I can see the context.

If skritter wants to become more of a integrated language learning app that suits me fine - before the sentences arrived I was thinking of setting up an anki account to practice using words in context. Now there's no need.

xiongnu said: simply learning words in isolation gets gradually less effective the larger your word bank becomes.

I agree.


All this said, if some people really can't stand the sentences, they should get the chance to hide them. But it shouldn't be the default.

Care should also be taken with the examples used, particularly for early words. I think new learners could be discouraged if all the examples were far above their level.

Correction of mistakes would be nice to, and not just in sentences: there's already a thread on it, but I've noticed (in the last month?) words going uncorrected for a long time.

But in general, thanks for the sentences, I love them.

exactly 　tala far, I had to set up an anki just to fulfil seeing the words in context, it was simply becoming not so productive to endlessly practice words in isolation, and searching for example sentences was time consuming, now skritter gives them to me directly WHILE I am practicing the word, I'm a happy bunny!

"the chief told good mornig the worker did."

imagine you are a learner of English and you get the upper sentence as an "example sentence" on an English learning website.
Good idea?
Definetly not.

This is only to illustrate the point how harmful it can be to think that all the given sentences here are corrct and therefore take them as the nonplusultra and learn them.

I like the idea of the sentences a lot but they have to be 100% CORRECT, otherwise its useless or even bad for your Chinese.

As I see that many fellow Skritterers here find the example sentences useful, I am also getting less fanatical about whether or not they belong to Skritter and are useful or not, but still want to emphasize malaili's key argument: they are distracting. They ruin the user experience and the flow. It's not enjoyable anymore. Blame my abilities to direct my attention, but I just cannot help starting to read the sentence, no matter how much I try not to pay attention to it. I think it would be exactly the same if the mnemonics were shown automatically (how many of you would like that, by the way?): you just 'unconsciously' start reading it even if you don't want to. I bet any eye tracking study would reveal the same.

My own take is that I'd like to be able to disable sentences.

Main reason is that is not clear to me that they're always from a by native for native source, and right now that's the only Chinese content I'm trying to allow in my head... :)

In concept it's a reasonable idea, although I share the concern about feature creep.

I think it is a good first effort, with lots of room for improvement. Give Nick a break already. Many people wanted this and he worked hard to provide it before his big day.

Some suggestions for improvement:

- Provide example sentences in the form of a separate view accessible through an additional icon at the top, much like the web version;
- In said separate view, make it possible to identify and translate individual words (just like in the web version);
- Make it possible to add those individual words to a personal "Example Sentence Vocabulary" list (lots of words in there I do not know yet and would be interested in studying, without having to go through the trouble of having to write them down or manually type them into a new vocabulary list using Skritter's web interface);
- Make it possible to add personal example sentences (with the option to share them, just like for the definitions).

I'd like to support the idea expressed by other people above that we should be given a possibility to hide the example sentences from the "front" side of the cards. So far, I found the following two ideas expressed above by "lc3t35" and "omlaakso" most interesting: either (1) provide an appropriate option in the settings, like "Hide example sentences from the front side of the cards", or (2) just hide them by default, but let them be visible together with mnemonics after a user pushes a small downward arrow.

"范博涵" suggested to show example sentences in a separate view after the user presses an additional icon at the top. I don't think an extra icon is necessary, since we already have that small downward arrow, so why don't we reuse it for this purpose as well?

As for the general idea to bring the example sentences into the iOS application, I think it is great, so please in any case keep them at the "back" side of the cards, I'm sure they shouldn't irritate or distract anybody there. But like some other people in this thread, I don't like to see them at the "front" side, so please give us an option to hide them.

There's another consideration. In my opinion, up until the last update, the design of the "front" side of the cards in Skritter was 100% perfect! Simply a state of art, I have always admired it. Now, with all these example sentences there, it has become a mess. The example sentences started to litter the space, distract my attention, break the aesthetic appeal of the application. Of course, effectiveness is very important, but please don't forget about the aesthetics too!

Jeremy, you wrote above, "It's also possible to disable example sentences for a user on a request basis, until any option would become available if it were to be implemented to hide them."

Is it possible to disable them on the front side of the cards only, but keep them on the back side?

@malaili I totally agree with your view.

I dont even look at the sentences anymore.

My new method is to go over to my chinesepod page and look up sentences with the word I am studying there. They have a nice pool of them.

But I should say that it is in the first place not skritters job to offer sentences. anything they offer more is a plus, not a must.

Before the team sits down to discuss what to do, I'd just like to suggest something like this:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1309600/skrittergif.gif

In stead of trying to fit it all on one page.

I have not tried the new update, can anyone post a screenshot, so I can see what all the fuss is about?

I think example sentences are a good idea, and personally don't see the current approach as particularly distracting。

I do think that the source of sentences needs to be trustworthy - it is different to mnemonics, and can't be "crowd-chosen" - I can see if a mnemonic works for me or not, but not if a sentence is correct (and the fact ten non-chinese (probably english speakers with the same biases) vote it as good chinese doesn't mean much) - I'm sure most of us have spotted some mnemonics with clear errors or that simply don't make sense. Equally 100 random sentences of unknown quality from users is less useful than 1 or 2 correct sentences.

Maybe in the interim when people submit sentences they can put in brackets "(NC)" (i.e. Native Checked) or something to give a clue it is reasonably reliable? And maybe at some point when submitting sentences there can be tick boxes to indicate native checked or box to indicate source or something?

How about chinesepod users having the chinesepod glossary sentences available too? That would be great!

This thread has covered many points; I can only respond to some of them.

In addition to the crowdsourcing, we can put some work into making sure the top example sentences for the most common words are correct, but there will always be a long tail of sentences which we can't check as the words get less common. Having some crowdsourced sentences in there rather than no sentences at least allows us to improve over time. Please be patient with sentence quality; just as with our dictionary quality and stroke orders and lists and every other piece of content in Skritter, they will get a lot better as we all work on them.

I personally have never had the problem of being unable to ignore the sentences as part of the prompt, so perhaps you can help me to understand. This works similarly to how it has always worked in the web app: the sentences are there, cloze-deleted, for the writing prompts so that you can use the sentence to prompt yourself for the word, especially helpful when you have hidden reading turned on. Very few people have complained about seeing the sentences on the web version. Is it just a layout issue that causes them to be ignorable in one case and not the other, or something else?

This is why we don't want to hide the sentences under the dropdown arrow or on a separate view: they can be a helpful way to practice prompting the words in context, as opposed to just relying on the definition or reading.

As far as I can tell, none of the other sources of sentences mentioned in this thread are available for us to use commercially.

The sentences you create may not be automatically downloaded to the app, because we still don't have a mechanism for notifying the app when new sentences are available. That's still something we plan for a future update. If you need them in the app right after you create them in the web, you'll unfortunately have to do a Clear Local Data.

Many of the other approaches suggested here rely on creating another preference to control whether the sentences are shown. If they really disturb a large number of users and we can't find a compromise, we might resort to that, but we try hard to avoid adding extra preferences.

Extra preferences are very expensive in non-obvious ways. They make it harder for users to find the other preferences they need. They take up space in the UI. They necessitate maintenance and make it harder to add support for new platforms. They make it more difficult to track down problems, because you're multiplying the number of possible configurations. They require explaining.

If a preference isn't going to be useful to a large fraction of users, then we try to keep things simpler.

Nick,
I also ignored the sentences on the web app (at least most of the time). But indeed, they are quite helpful and as I see them on the iOS app, I would like to use them. However, it's quite frustrating, if you see so many sentences with wrong grammar, the HanDeDict "sentences", which to 90 % are not sentences but expressions, a lot of mechanical engineering, which I even don't understand in German (I do not intend to build a train or a printing machine), or have the famous placeholder - coming soon be shown, although proper sentences would be available.
If I could opt, my most wanted 2 features were:
1) A preference: only show me sentences (on the iOS app), which were selected by me (on the web-app),
2) Give me information, which sentences were checked by Skritter and found as correct sentences.
It also wouldn't make much sense, if you put effort into the correction of sentences and the user even doesn't know.