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What am I missing with the traditional versions?

Mandarinboy   April 7th, 2011 9:40p.m.

I just started to study traditional versions as well as simplified. Works great but today i got a few that seems strange to me. I got this e.g. 面 as traditional form and when checking the simplified version that is also 面. I where rather sure that the traditional form where 麵. How come that I got the simplified form also as Traditional? Has this anything to do with the different usage of the character? I got other simplified marked as traditional as well.

Mandarinboy   April 7th, 2011 9:54p.m.

I where missing something, there are in fact a difference in usage. So in e.g. 裡面 it should be the 面. But, when this where added also the 裡 did show up as 里 and marked as trad. This did only happen on the first viewing, the second got the correct form 裡. Now I seems to get the correct trad and simp forms. On the other hand, why is 面 marked as trad form where there are no simp form for it?

jww1066   April 7th, 2011 11:52p.m.

You are beginning to understand the complexity of the situation. In this case, before simplification there were two distinct characters, 面 and 麵. They were both simplified to 面; you can think of it like they were merged into one; or 麵 was absorbed by 面, whatever you prefer. Here's what MDGB says about the situation:

面 面 miàn face; side; surface; aspect; top; classifier for flat surfaces such as drums, mirrors, flags etc
面 麵 miàn flour; noodles

So, if you're in a simplified context, 面 can mean "face; side..." OR "flour; noodles". However, in a traditional context, 面 can only mean "face; side..." and cannot mean "flour; noodles".

Now, about your question "On the other hand, why is 面 marked as trad form where there are no simp form for it?" It's not exactly the case that there's no simplified form for 面; it's just that that form is also 面. What changes is not the form of the character, it's the meaning.

You can see this if you click on the word popup for 面; at the top you'll see links to the other variants, and you can click on them and see the slight differences in meaning. Just to confirm that it's in agreement with MDBG, Skritter also says that the traditional version means

face; aspect; side (Kangxi radical 176)

while the simplified version means

face; aspect; side; noodle; flour (Kangxi radical 176)

James

Mandarinboy   April 7th, 2011 11:55p.m.

Same goes for 了. There are no simplified version of that. There is however an duplication of this in Unihan due to different meaning but in skritter both the simp and the trad version seems to have the same meanings. Isn't 了 used just for completed actions in both simp and trad? The other trad form, 瞭, is more of understand clearly.

Mandarinboy   April 7th, 2011 11:58p.m.

Point taken but it do cause some confusion;-) Especially when i first get the simp version and then later get the trad version and they are both the "same". Hmm, just accetp as always i guess.

jww1066   April 8th, 2011 12:29a.m.

No, in 了解 (simplified) for example the 了 is pronounced liao3 and means "understand". I believe this situation is a bit more complex than for 面:

了 has three entries in Yellowbridge, which have two different pronunciations:

了/了 le (modal particle intensifying preceding clause); (completed action marker)
了/了 liǎo to finish; to achieve; to understand
了/瞭 liǎo (of eyes) bright; clear-sighted; to understand clearly

James

jeffwong   April 15th, 2011 1:03a.m.

Could we have a way to see the Simplified version of Traditional characters?

I'm learning Traditional and I would like to be able to basically pick up Simplified for free. All of the TV series in San Francisco local TV are now in Simplified because they've been imported from the PRC.

jeffwong   April 15th, 2011 1:08a.m.

I guess the workaround for now is to ask to learn simplified but not how to write them.

podster   April 15th, 2011 1:15a.m.

Have you tried the magnifying glass button? I am studying simplified in Skritter, and if I click the magnifying glass for a character or a word I will see the traditional equivalent, if different, or the traditional version of the characters within words that have traditional versions. I can also navigate from there to a number of dictionaries if I want to see more about the etymology or uses of a given character. (Using the drop down menu from the upper right hand corner.)

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